An Introduction to Planetary Dignity and Debility

[Night Sky]

I use Ptolemys table (the one which Lilly uses) however I havent really studied indepty Dorotheus' system so I cant be bias.

Nightsky,



No its not. Accidental dignity is only second to Essential.

Could you explain me why ???

Say Jupiter in SAG in the third as opposed to Jupiter in Virgo in the 1st house? OR in Gemini in the 9th? What are the differences here in the terms of dignity accidental and essential?

Thank you


p.s. It doesn`t exactly bother me whether one is better or the other... What I was after more was a distinction between the two, what the outcomes of different scenarios might be... Just to explore and understand.

 

[Night Sky]

I just read your page on Dignities Astro.Teacher

What do you make of Peregrine planets?

 

[astro.teacher]

Could you explain me why ???

Yes, the stars have more influence than invisible lines in the Heavens, therefore their influence on the Planets in those positions determine their happiness or unhappiness in that position.The power is stronger in the Essential dignities/debilities for this purpose.

Say Jupiter in SAG in the third as opposed to Jupiter in Virgo in the 1st house? OR in Gemini in the 9th? What are the differences here in the terms of dignity accidental and essential?

I assume you mean opposed to Mercury (having both House in Virgo and Gemini). Both Planets are Essentially dignified (maybe one more than the other depending on the degree). They are both powerful and influential in the chart. The opposition comes into effect when analyzing the relationships between these two Planets. If we find that one is Lord of the 3rd and the other the Lord of the 9th, we can clearly see there is contention betwen our siblings and their spouse (the 9th House being our siblngs 7th). The opposition shows us the relationship between these two aspects of our life. Although this really doesnt answer what you were looking for.

The accidental dignities/debilities, are dignities/debilities that happen ... by acciddent. They dont NEED to happen (except for the House placements). A Planet may or may not be in a specific aspect with Jupiter & etc. and if it is, it becomes more powerful. But the Essential dignities are ones that will ALWAYS happen. A Planet is either in one or the other (Dignity or Debility). Its "essential".

What do you make of Peregrine planets?

Peregrine Planets are the only exception to the rule I stated before. Peregrine Planets are in no Essential Dignities and thus are lost. Their powers are stripped from them and therefore receive a negative influence from it.

 

[Night Sky]

Thanks Astro.Teacher,

Your answers make me question more though.

I recently met someone who has a natal chart with Jupiter in FALL (Virgo) Essentially debilitated, with the planet slow and Retrograde, however, this planet is in the first house making a trine to Venus another ACCIDENTAL dignity. This person exhibits all of the Joyful, enthusiastic bouyant characteristics of the planet to the point that you would call them Jupeterian, or Jovial.

So in my mind at least having this accidental dignity through being in the FIRST house, many of the traits are easy to see.

ON the other hand though and I am agreing with here now... Jupiter in Saggittarius by being in Essential dignity and although in a weak house, (third) and conjunct the South Node, (traditional debility by accident) is broad minded, lucky, and religiously inclined. The optimism though is hidden away slightly.

Essential dignity therefore comes first. But if it is hidden away in the 12th house, with no aspects? I think I might have to conclude that it is just not seen by people the way it would be done in the 1st house.


One more thing... Perigrine planets are better off than planets in detriment and fall right? I read somewhere that by being peregrine, a planet loses its MODERATION, and that was the precise word used, for both peregrine and detriment and fall.

 

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

Excuse me if I step in.

One more thing... Perigrine planets are better off than planets in detriment and fall right?

In some instances, yes. Lilly writes that peregrine planets suffer the same amount of damage as a planet in its detriment, this is something I don't necessarily agree with, and other authors don't agree with him about this either. Personally, I think of a peregrine planet as being completely at the whims of its environment. A fallen or detrimented planet is injured, while a peregrine planet is just getting lost in the winds of the chart.

 

[astro.teacher]

Your answers make me question more though.

Im glad it got you thinking!! Thats a very good quality to have in Astrology, question everything! Because there IS an answer to it.

I recently met someone who has a natal chart with Jupiter in FALL (Virgo) Essentially debilitated, with the planet slow and Retrograde, however, this planet is in the first house making a trine to Venus another ACCIDENTAL dignity. This person exhibits all of the Joyful, enthusiastic bouyant characteristics of the planet to the point that you would call them Jupeterian, or Jovial.

So in my mind at least having this accidental dignity through being in the FIRST house, many of the traits are easy to see.

The person will always be Jovial, whether dignified or debilitated. You will find however that outside (or accidental) influences will make these Jovial qualities change. The trine to Venus must be Partile in order for it to be considered an Accidental dignity (meaning not above 17').

ON the other hand though and I am agreing with here now... Jupiter in Saggittarius by being in Essential dignity and although in a weak house, (third) and conjunct the South Node, (traditional debility by accident) is broad minded, lucky, and religiously inclined. The optimism though is hidden away slightly.

Being in the 3rd House, would give these significations to the significations of the 3rd (siblings, vain dreams, short travel, writing) more than to the individuals personality (which is shown by the Ascendant/Lord & etc.). If we find that Jupiter is dignified in this position essentially, we can conclude that the siblings of the native (or their writings/dreams & etc) will be somewhat of the nature of Jupiter. This person will have a brother (most likely if testimonies agree) who is Jovial (ie. in temperament and with his significations, religious, just, & etc.). His conjunction with the South Node however declares scandals and controversies surrounding this sibling/neighbour and/or the natives writing concerning topics of religion, sciences, arts, (and other Jovial significations). At any rate, it brings scandal by way of Jovial persuits.

Essential dignity therefore comes first. But if it is hidden away in the 12th house, with no aspects? I think I might have to conclude that it is just not seen by people the way it would be done in the 1st house.

Theres a saying in Astrology "use your judgment". You are perfectly right, sometimes its accidental dignity/debility can be more open and obvious than its Essential. For each situation you should use your judgment to determine the answer to this.

One more thing... Perigrine planets are better off than planets in detriment and fall right? I read somewhere that by being peregrine, a planet loses its MODERATION, and that was the precise word used, for both peregrine and detriment and fall

Kaiousei no Senshi shares my opinion on this (and a lot of other things as well!). Each of these share different influences. A Fall indicates that one is falling from their place of power, they are descending in power and influence and therefore their influence on others is weakened. This can be seen as a leader who is losing control over his people. Hes not necessarily disposed of them, but hes certainly about to be in that position. Detriment indicates someone who has fallen into ruin. For example, a leader who has not only lost his people and influence, but also his possessions and those things which he values. He has went from a King to a Begger. This is obviously a lot worse than simply falling from a position. A peregrine Planet is like one who has no power or influence over anyone. It doesnt necessarily mean that he has falling from this position or been placed in ruin as he was never in a position of power to begin with. This would be like someone who has been a begger or wanderer all their lives, never knowing where they are going, they have no influence to command others.

 

[nejispirit]

Well, I knew that my sun is exalted since it is in Aries, also that my Venus is in detriment since it is in Aries.

Argh, Venus in Aries can be a pain to try and manage, especially when you are dating one with Venus in Cancer- I find that Venus in Aries has made me too impulsive and attached too quickly to someone in the past, but now I have it better controlled- somewhat at least :sunny:

 

[AquaAqua]

:

• Saturn in Leo:-slow education,ruling by female child.
• Mars in Libra:-Two alive life partner.
• Sun in Aquarius:-No Values of father in family.

Hi AstroB

Can you explain the above three a bit more please?

thanks

Aqua

 

[byjove]

OK then, I've Mercury in Pisces, is he uplifted by a reception with Mars in Gemini, 11th house, sextile Mercury 5deg? Also, Uranus 6th sq Mercury 2deg, and Mercury was exactly conjunct Midheaven, exactly trine Cancer AC...are the strong AC MC connections & Mars reception enough to help him?

 

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

OK then, I've Mercury in Pisces, is he uplifted by a reception with Mars in Gemini, 11th house, sextile Mercury 5deg?

No.

Mercury was exactly conjunct Midheaven, exactly trine Cancer AC...are the strong AC MC connections & Mars reception enough to help him?

Being conjoined with the MC gives it accidental dignity.

 

[byjove]

No.

Being conjoined with the MC gives it accidental dignity.

I went on to find out that this accidental dignity can give a planet more ammo, so to speak, but whether that ammo is used for good is a different matter. Doesn't sound good when Hermes swims with the Fishes...Hmm.

Can someone help me understand something in my chart? It really is a question of dignity in this one...

It's between the Sun and Saturn. The Sun is placed in the 10th of Aries. In terms of dignity, he has a Mars term, if that helps him in any way, being in Mars' sign. He has a trine with Saturn (0.01degs) conjunct Uranus (5.3degs), sextile 11th Gemini Chiron and a semi-square with 11th Gemini Mars.

Saturn is at the end of the 5th, ruler of the 7th and has term AND face dignity in Saggitarius. Saturn is the head of a T-square, 9th Pisces Venus square Saturn (2degs) and 3rd Virgo Moon square Saturn (2egs).

Who has more dignity? Are they both 'applying'? Saturn has two kinds of dignity, is ruler of the DC, the head of a T and is busy instructing a conjunct Uranus but is also exactly trine an exalted Aries Sun, in reception in the 10th.

As time goes on and I look back at these two planets, they rule quite a lot in my life. Not everything - there are definitely other planets looking for attention. But what's going on with these two? Any help would be hugely appreciated.

http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?rs=3&btyp=w2gw&&cid=foffile5qhNY9-u1233767349

 

[~Kent~]

I notice that the example in the Skyscript recommended reading for using the Ptolemaic dignities and debilities is a HORARY chart. I don’t see this kind of a debility-dignity analysis used much for NATAL analysis and I wonder if there is not a mixing of the metaphors in this thread. Can somebody point me to a really good use of the dignity-debility scheme, in the analysis of natal charts?

In the meantime let me bring to bear the following scores for your consideration.


Mon Sun Mer Ven Mar Jup Sat
Picasso +3 -5 +2 +5 -9 +3 -5
John Lennon -5 -9 +2 -1 -10 +2 -5
Miles Davis -9 -5 -5 -4 -5 -5 -5
Churchill -5 +1 +1 +6 -10 +6 +6
Jules Verne -9 -10 -5 +7 +5 +7 -10
Hemingway -10 -5 +1 +3 +1 -5 -5
Anne Rice -5 -9 -5 -1 +5 -10 +1

Mon Sun Mer Ven Mar Jup Sat
David Berkowitz +9 -5 -5 +10 +6 +4 +3
Ted Bundy +4 -5 +2 -2 +5 +10 -4
Al Capone +5 +4 -5 +5 +1 +2 +2
Jim Jones +7 +5 +1 -2 +2 +7 +6
Jeff Dahmer -5 -5 +11 +8 +6 -3 +5
Edward Gein +9 +5 +5 +9 +3 +14 +4
Adlf Eichmann +1 +7 +2 +7 +4 -4 +1
Cho Noon +6 +4 -5 +5 +8 +5 +2

Cho Noon is the mass murderer at Virginia Tech
Note esp. Churchill’s high negative Mars when in fact he was a victorious warrior on so many fronts.
Ignored school as a kid and played with his toy soldiers
Note John Lennon’s and Miles Davis’ total negative scores
Jules Verne Mercury -5?
Hemingway, the most influenctial writer fo 20th Century with Mercury of only +1? Anne Rice Mercury is -5?
Note the high positive scores among many in the second, infamous category.
Al Capone's only negative is his Mercury? Jim Jones' only negative is Venus?
Eichman's only neg score is for Jupiter?
Ed Gein has only positive scores?
and Cho Noon (Cho Seung-Hui Noon) has mostly pos scores except for Mercury?

The Horary dignities and debilities do not seem a very good scheme for predicting
strength of character, intelligence, artistic achievement, level of sanity, amount of love offered, or
even whether a person contributes positively or negatively to humanity.
So what good are these predictors in natal chart analysis?

 

[~Kent~]

Can you explain why the dignity-debility scores of my first group of positive contributors to humanity are so low in comparison with the second group of negative contributors? If I didn't know who Miles Davis was, by his numbers, I would think he was a total loser. And if I didn't know Ed Gein was a mass murderer I would think he was extremely successful. There seems no correlation between a person's scores and their contribution (+ or -) to humanity. Ed Gein beats everyone in my positive list. Most of the people in the sociopath list outscore all the geniuses and positive contributors in the first list.
__________________
note: the scores in my lists are the totals for each planet using the standard scores for rulership, exaltation, triplicity, term, face, detriment, fall and for peregrination. Solar Fire lists them for you neatly in a report it calls a Horary report.

 

[~Kent~]

I think Solar Fire includes peregrination.
See Bundy's chart and look at his Sun.
No essential dignities across the board and SF gives his Sun -5 I presume for peregrine condition of Bundy's Sun.

Thank you for your response to my question. I do consider essential digniity and debility in my natal analyses but so far have not used triplicity, term and face.

I know Miles Davis may have not been "nice" but he was arguably one of the top 3 or 5 most influential musicians in the 20th Century and gave much to the collective of humanity for which we are richer.

And Ed Gein, with stellar numbers, was a monster.

I agree that you must look at the whole chart and with that I have to put the dignity scheme into perspective. To place too much emphasis on the essential dignities can be extremely misleading with respect to judging a nativity. IMO

And I notice that in the literature (at least the CPA and psychological astrologers that I admire, Liz Green, Sasportas, Erin Sullivan, Darby Costello, Charles Harvey, even Marc Edmund Jones) the essential dignities beyond home, detriment, exaltation, and fall are never used.

There is such a disconnect between the traditional astrologers and the modern psychological astrologers. Someone like Richard Tarnas doesn't use even the essential dignities. (Cosmos and Psyche, and "Prometheus") Tarnas has done some wonderful work in bringing a broader acceptance of astrology among people the likes of Stan Grof, Joseph Campbell, James Hillman and the teachers from Pacifica Graduate Institute in Santa Barbara.

Different strokes. . .

Thanks again for your reply. I appreciate it and the time you spent answering my question.

 

[~Kent~]

I must say Lennon and Miles Davis contributed very positively to humanity, especially in comparison with Ed Gein, Ted Bundy and the other sociopaths and this is not even remotely indicated by the dignity of their planets. It is nearly an impossible stretch for me to think of Churchill as deficient in Martian energy, in spite of his low score (-10) for Mars. Or Einstein whose Mercury scores -5. There seems no correlation between the dignity scheme and a person’s known strengths and weaknesses which makes me question its usefulness. And then I don’t see anyone using the dignity scheme in natal chart analysis to arrive at any great illumination. I think traditionalists and moderns use home, exaltation, detriment and fall. To me those strengths and weaknesses come from the agreement or lack of it between the planetary archetype and the archetype of the sign. I don't see too many people using triplicity, term and face though in natal analysis. Can you point me to some? My library is weighted to moderns.

One advantage modern astrologers have over the traditionalists, I think, is they talk in terms of contemporary issues, and contemporary understandings. Not too many people will listen to you seriously, except other traditional astrologers, if you start talking about humors. But all schools of psychology today recognize the efficacy of Jung’s typology. So the moderns have the advantage of being able to discuss and share understanding with other disciplines. The traditionalists have to talk among themselves. They can hardly even talk to the modern astrologers let alone other branches of science. The moderns are open to the archetypal ideas that began with Plato (talk about traditional) but were re-interpreted by Carl Jung, Marie Louise von Franz, Joseph Campbell and later by James Hillman and now Richard Tarnas. The potential for cross-polinization seems so much greater for the moderns. Perhaps the traditionalists have a stronger Saturn and the moderns have a stronger Uranus. It does seem that you are one or the other.

Is this site primarily a traditional astrological site then?
_________________________
I think you should check your math on Ted Bundy's chart. Solar Fire's scores are correct I think. I think yours are in error.
Moon is Mutual Reception in Triplicity with Jupiter + Moon in own Face = +4.
Mars MR with Jupiter = +5.
Jupiter MR with Mars + Jup MR in Triplicity with Moon + Jupiter in own Term = +10.

 

[RayAustin]

Second, you have to look at the whole picture. I have SF. It picks up some dignities and debilities, misses others, and seems to add in a few where they don't exist. It's pretty buggy in that regard, in other words.

Sun: -5 (peregrine), SF has -5 - agree, but does SF list the peregrination?
Moon: +1, SF has +4 - disagree
Mercury: +2, SF has +2 - agree
Venus: -2, SF has -2 - agree
Mars: 0 (peregrine), SF has +5 - disagree, does SF list the peregrination?
Jupiter: +7 (he was a barrister, remember, which is a Jupiterian profession, this seems to be one of the ways it expressed), SF has +10 - disagree
Saturn: -4, SF has -4 - agree

Olivia... that's because the programs often add extra points for being in mutual reception with another planet, being direct, being swift, or free of the sun beams.. things that are not all specified in a table and the human astrologer might ignore.

 

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

Hemingway, the most influenctial writer fo 20th Century with Mercury of only +1? Anne Rice Mercury is -5

Be careful of something like this. Traditionally, Luna rules grammar, Mercury rules arithmatic.

It is nearly an impossible stretch for me to think of Churchill as deficient in Martian energy, in spite of his low score (-10) for Mars. Or Einstein whose Mercury scores -5.

Negative planetary scores are not indicative of deficet in that planet's energy or influence. It's there, it's just there in a different, usually hindering or in a non-obvious way. Mars in detriment brings out the negative martian qualities like anger and rage, whereas Mars in dignity brings out positive martian qualities. Sort of like that.

I don't see too many people using triplicity, term and face though in natal analysis. Can you point me to some?

I use the triplicities as a natal technique like authors like Vettius Valens did in his charts. You can see an example of this here http://www.skyscript.co.uk/triplicities.html under the appropriate tab.

One advantage modern astrologers have over the traditionalists, I think, is they talk in terms of contemporary issues, and contemporary understandings. Not too many people will listen to you seriously, except other traditional astrologers, if you start talking about humors.

This made my day. The reason why moderns don't pay attention to these words is because when you say someone is predominately phelgmatic, moderns go "What'd you call me!?" because they don't understand what all the phelgmatic humour is composed of and how it materializes in those people who have it in predominance.

It's actually pretty interesting because if you read Lilly's Christian Astrology chapter 16 he says this about Virgo: "It's an earthly, cold, melancholy, barren, feminine, nocturnal, southern sign; the house and exaltation of Mercury, of the earthy triplicity."

I'm sure you're saying "Well...that's not very descriptive", but for the astrologers of Lilly's day who understood what all of those words meant and how they play out and manifest, it sums Virgo up quite nicely.

 

[RayAustin]

I think it's worthwhile we also consider that the planetary strengths/and dignities in the 'horary table' you mentioned are for just that.. horary. In horary, planets with negative points are expressed very negatively, as opposed to natal.

Ray

 

[byjove]

Hi all,

I've been wondering about my natal Mercury for a while. My natal Mercury is in Pisces,
he is not in face or term etc. of any planet in essential dignity, nor is an planet in essential dignity in a term, face etc. of Mercury. He is at the end of house 9, another less-helpful position. He is however, exactly conjunct the MC, exactly trine AC, the former prescribing accidental dignity. So, how do I consider him? I just don't know if he's a lost cause.

 

[piscesascendant]

Actually, Mercury is in exaltation in Aquarius, not Virgo. Mercury rules Virgo along with Gemini. (Astrology: A Cosmic Science by: Isabel Hickey), along with other material I've read. Plus, the aid of two professional astrologers.