Anthony Louis' claim that Renaissance triplicity allocation is wrong

[Dima Gur]

Hi everyone,

I've recently noticed that in a 2020 article by Anthony Louis (whom I respect tremendously), there was this claim.
That William Lilly and his contemporaries misunderstood how the triplicity dignity works, and that it should be allocated, or scored, according to ALL THREE RULERS. That is, instead of just the day ruler or night ruler.

Here's the article by AL:
https://tonylouis.wordpress.com/2020/05/25/further-reflections-on-triplicity-lords

Here's a quote from his article (paragraph 9):
"Dorotheus makes an important point about triplicity rulers, which William Lilly apparently misunderstood. In Book I, chapter 1 of his Carmen Astrologicum , Dorotheus makes clear that all three triplicity rulers act as triplicity lords all the time. The change from day to night simply shifts the emphasis on which matter within a house the particular triplicity lord is likely to signify according to the ordering of the three lords as first, second, and third (participating). Whether it is a day chart or a night chart determines “who’s on first” but does not negate the fact that the second triplicity lord is part of the triumvirate of triplicity governors which all possess the dignity of being triplicity rulers."

What do you think of this claim?
If this is true, the entire renaissance tradition of scoring/allocating only one triplicity lord according to sect should be replaced by the older Hellenistic tradition of scoring/allocation triplicity rulership for all three.

This interests me personally, as dignity has always peaked my interest, and as I currently teach both methods but am wondering if I should emphasize the Hellenistic method.

 

[leomoon]

I was going to ask if you tried Deborah Houlding's site Skyscript yet because I think the best of Hellenistic Astrologers would be there. So I looked myself, and saw you did just today:
https://www.skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewforum.php?f=4
I'd not give up - and hope if you get an answer from them, please let us know. I talk with Tony Louis now and then on Facebook, and also have a book or two (mostly Horary) of his and respect his work, but I am the type of person who likes to hear all sides meaning I would want to hear from Wm. Lily (lol of course I cannot ask him why ) so we'll never know that answer. I don't like to "assume" anything about another as to why they chose something before saying they were wrong.

Kindly let us know if you hear from Deborah or the others.

 

[JUPITERASC]

Hi everyone,
I've recently noticed that in a 2020 article by Anthony Louis (whom I respect tremendously), there was this claim.
That William Lilly and his contemporaries misunderstood how the triplicity dignity works, and that it should be allocated, or scored, according to ALL THREE RULERS. That is, instead of just the day ruler or night ruler.

Here's the article by AL:
https://tonylouis.wordpress.com/2020/05/25/further-reflections-on-triplicity-lords

https://tonylouis.wordpress.com/2020/05/25/further-reflections-on-triplicity-lords

Here's a quote from his article (paragraph 9):
"Dorotheus makes an important point about triplicity rulers, which William Lilly apparently misunderstood. In Book I, chapter 1 of his Carmen Astrologicum , Dorotheus makes clear that all three triplicity rulers act as triplicity lords all the time. The change from day to night simply shifts the emphasis on which matter within a house the particular triplicity lord is likely to signify according to the ordering of the three lords as first, second, and third (participating). Whether it is a day chart or a night chart determines “who’s on first” but does not negate the fact that the second triplicity lord is part of the triumvirate of triplicity governors which all possess the dignity of being triplicity rulers."

What do you think of this claim?
If this is true, the entire renaissance tradition of scoring/allocating only one triplicity lord according to sect should be replaced by the older Hellenistic tradition of scoring/allocation triplicity rulership for all three. This interests me personally, as dignity has always peaked my interest, and as I currently teach both methods but am wondering if I should emphasize the Hellenistic method.

"..The way that Dorotheus presented the triplicity lords is significant.
Dorotheus did not say that the Sun is the triplicity lord of a fire sign by day
and Jupiter by night.
No, he said that by day the lords of that triplicity are the Sun, then Jupiter, then Saturn,
and by night they are Jupiter, then the Sun, then Saturn.
He did this for each triplicity.
This emphasizes that all three are important for either chart sect.
Sect only pertains to their order.."

"..It is clear from Valens’s use of language pertaining to “preeminence” & second and third places
that all three are used.
It is the order and relative importance that changes by day and night
Valens laid out how to use the triplicity lords in delineation.
Valens explicitly looked at all three rulers
in much the same fashion as Dorotheus.."

https://sevenstarsastrology.com/triplicity-rulers-one-or-three/



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[Rhys]

"

What do you think of this claim?
If this is true, the entire renaissance tradition of scoring/allocating only one triplicity lord according to sect should be replaced by the older Hellenistic tradition of scoring/allocation triplicity rulership for all three.

Not everyone would agree with this...

In the world of magic, magical systems work as long as one sticks to the system.

For example, the Hermetic Tree of Life (the one used by the Golden Dawn and its offshoots) has Hebrew letter correspondences that were made by a medieval Benedictine monk named Kirchner. The kabbalist rabbis back then had no intention of telling a goy like Kirchner their secrets, so Kirchner, being German, very logically laid our the 22 Hebrew letters in alphabetical order from alef (a) to the last letter of the Hebrew alphabet. It was quite logical, but absolutely WRONG. We now know the traditional attributions, and they are completely different from the Hermetic Tree.

And yet... the Hermetic Tree works as a magical system, as long as one stays within it.

The same is true of astrology, and this is why traditional astrologers say that if you are going to work within the Renaissance/medieval tradition (Lilly Gadbury, Bonatti, etc), stay within it. These people were master astrologers, and they made it work, even if their logic was based on a misunderstanding of Dorotheus.

Equally; If you are going to work within the ancient Greek (Hellenistic) tradition, stay within it.

Ancient astrology and traditional astrology (renaissance & medieval) are two discrete system. Better not to mix them up. At least this is what people like Warnock would say. And I've heard purists in the Hellenistic tradition say similar things.

That being said, I am guilty of mixing them up. I use the Dorothean triplicity rulers.

 

[JUPITERASC]

 

[Dima Gur]

Leomoon:
Will try not to forget, in case I'll get a nice informative reply on Skyscript.
So far I've got something similar to what Rhys claims in this thread.

JupiterASC:
In your post above this one, you have this blue and white table.
Do you have it in a higher quality? Or maybe a link to it in an external source?

Rhys:
Thanks for replying.
I agree with in general.
Of course Lilly was a master of his craft and it wouldn't be mistaken to follow his lead.
I guess that despite this fact, this interests me on a wider scope. Mainly to try and understand if there are other astrologers or astrology scholars who agree with AL about this claim.
Or maybe there would be differing opinion on the matter...
--
Sidenote: your astrological qualifications are quite impressive.
If I understand correctly, you're an American who is based in France

 

[JUPITERASC]

Leomoon:
Will try not to forget, in case I'll get a nice informative reply on Skyscript.
So far I've got something similar to what Rhys claims in this thread.

JupiterASC:
In your post above this one, you have this blue and white table.
Do you have it in a higher quality? Or maybe a link to it in an external source?

Rhys:
Thanks for replying.
I agree with in general.
Of course Lilly was a master of his craft and it wouldn't be mistaken to follow his lead.
I guess that despite this fact, this interests me on a wider scope. Mainly to try and understand if there are other astrologers or astrology scholars who agree with AL about this claim.
Or maybe there would be differing opinion on the matter...
--
Sidenote: your astrological qualifications are quite impressive.
If I understand correctly, you're an American who is based in France

 

[IleneK]

Rhys:
Thanks for replying.
I agree with in general.
Of course Lilly was a master of his craft and it wouldn't be mistaken to follow his lead.
I guess that despite this fact, this interests me on a wider scope. Mainly to try and understand if there are other astrologers or astrology scholars who agree with AL about this claim.
Or maybe there would be differing opinion on the matter...
--

In astrologer Charles Obert's Introduction to Traditional Natal Astrology he teaches and clearly practices, "Whether it is a day chart or a night chart determines “who’s on first” but does not negate the fact that the second triplicity lord is part of the triumvirate of triplicity governors which all possess the dignity of being triplicity rulers."

 

[Dima Gur]

Found this article by Anthony from 7-stars-astrology:
https://sevenstarsastrology.com/triplicity-rulers-one-or-three
Apparently he reached the same conclusions as did Anthony Louis.

 

[JUPITERASC]

Found this article by Anthony from 7-stars-astrology:
https://sevenstarsastrology.com/triplicity-rulers-one-or-three
Apparently he reached the same conclusions as did Anthony Louis.

already posted on thread earlier - post3
i.e.

https://sevenstarsastrology.com/triplicity-rulers-one-or-three/

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[IleneK]

Found this article by Anthony from 7-stars-astrology:
https://sevenstarsastrology.com/triplicity-rulers-one-or-three
Apparently he reached the same conclusions as did Anthony Louis.

Does anyone know who the person is behind this site?
All I see is the name anthony in a contact email address [email protected]

 

[leomoon]

Does anyone know who the person is behind this site?
All I see is the name anthony in a contact email address [email protected]

I don't think it's Anthony Louis. Whoever it is, hasn't posted on his blog since 2021 - and although his Facebook is still up, its not current since 2021.
Dr. Anthony Louis is mentioned on the right side however for Tarot and Astrology - as a blog - His is current in both places.

https://sevenstarsastrology.com/resources/

 

[JUPITERASC]

Does anyone know who the person is behind this site?
All I see is the name anthony in a contact email address [email protected]

re: TRIPLICITY

https://sevenstarsastrology.com/astrological-sign-classifications-windselements-sex-sect/

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[Dima Gur]

Does anyone know who the person is behind this site?
All I see is the name anthony in a contact email address [email protected]

If I remember correctly, Chris Brennan on his podcast referred to him (his name is also Anthony) as one of his previous students.

 

[JUPITERASC]

If I remember correctly, Chris Brennan on his podcast referred to him (his name is also Anthony) as one of his previous students.

Chris Brennan was a student of Robert Schmidt


https://t.co/2suCTHkiZv


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[JUPITERASC]

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https://www.astronor.com/dignities.htm
Triplicities - When a planet in its own triplicity it shows a person who is well set in the world
both socially and financially. The person enjoys both funds and means.
He or she is resourceful and often well off in a formidable way.
Dignity through triplicity shows support and preferment.
The signifer will enjoy a circle of friends and be well positioned in the social network.
There is comfort and cultivation.
This person enjoys not only admittance to the match or concert, but also good seats.
The planet in its own triplicity represents someone who well off with money.