Are outer planets generational or personal?

[astrologer50]

Re: personal experience, to Jupiter

Thank you for illustrating my point! These effects are felt by large numbers of people because the effects of Uranus, Neptune and Pluto are generational and being generational, therefore large numbers of people are affected

NO they are *feeling the effects* because it's personal to them and experienced by THEM! maybe when you been around the forum a while longer and got more experience responding to threads/charts/members

Personal for sophisticated people (probably less than 15% of world population), generational for simple people.

nice one, I agree. I like your posts in Trad v modern thread to

 

[Mahasvapna]

The idea that we cannot confirm the effects of the outer planets because they have not been known about long enough to complete enough transits (and none in the case of Pluto) doesn't really hold water.

Part of astrological research is in looking back through the major events in history and exploring the relationship between the stars and those events.

One thing I think is important to remember is that the influence of outer planets, and other bodies, can be both generational and personal, in the same way that the Sun warms one whole side of the earth at any given moment, but also warms and affects individuals at the same time - it's the same sun, and it's effecting everyone, but some people have conditions making it harmful to them, some aren't hydrated enough, and some people are just configured in that moment to feel recharged and refreshed. Someone will look at the sunrise or the sunset at just the right moment and feel inspired or moved emotionally. Just one light, it's the same light to everyone, but it's different to everyone as well.

By looking at history and understanding the effect of the outer spheres on the generations, we can then infer what effect it then has on individuals, even in signs that it has not transited through since we were aware of it - as above, so below; how it affects the individual will be reflective of how it affects the whole, and I think this is where most of the interpretations of pluto probably come from.

With the right conditions in support of one another, even the weakest application of energy can yield powerful force. I don't personally hold the idea that the planets have any effect on us electromagnetically - the natural forces don't operate like that, and if it were true then anyone born too close to the wrong kind of electronics or technology would have an invalidated natal chart. I fall on the "spiritual mechanics" side of that debate, and under this paradigm actual time and space are irrelevant - everything in the universe is exerting influence on everything else all of the time.

I believe that the faster cycles are more obvious and therefore we say that they are more prominent or personal. Just as we say that a person grows up faster than a tree, a puppy grows up faster than a baby. Different cycles, faster and slower. Slow cycles may not make for as wild a ride so you can more clearly see the ups and downs - but the rest of the cycles still take place in context to it and from different angles of operation, altering the bumpiness of those faster and wilder rides.

If you prefer a purely scientific approach to astrology involving the strength and weakness of actual rays of light, then probably best to give up astrology rather than ignore the obvious flaws in that quack science - if that theory is true (and there's no reason it needs to be other than so that atheists can also enjoy astrology) then it should be no problem to create a machine which will mimic the proper electromagnetic signature necessary to birth whatever kind of person we want to, right?

peace

 

[Pisceanfool]

I see a lot of presumptions and accusations being thrown around based on strong personal opinion. For example Bobzemco assumes I have not seen thousands of charts simply because I do not prescribe to what be believes is true then compares to his personal chart which carries a strong personal bias. Very offensive and arrogant to presume such things and has no weight whatsoever.

EDIT: 'death' is transformation.

I think I will reiterate others in saying the real question comes down to the reality of how astrology is possible. Then we can determine what objects or points can influence or not. This is something which is highly debatable and unable to be proven by empirical evidence (scientific method) simply due to inherent methodological flaws in the study itself (the same can be true of most of psychology).

By saying me or so and so has no influence of the outer planets(or contradictory influences) is the exact same premise as those who conversely claim the same in regards to the outers having a personal effect. The point is they have observed it in this fashion as a reality in their perception and study. This is all we can study astrology based upon, which makes it more of an art than science. Therefore, one school of thought really cannot claim to be more valid until a real understanding of astrology is established or proven.

 

[Pisceanfool]

"maybe when you been around the forum a while longer and got more experience responding to threads/charts/members" lol he joined in january 2008 u joined november 2008. Actually, i respect you as an astrologer astrologer50 and even agree with you, I just wanted to point out the unjust accusation. Ad hominem.

 

[astrologer50]

pisceanfool, if you perceive a personal attack ( which is deeply frowned upon on AW) why not use the report feature for moderators to deal with said person/matter?
above right of post [!] that's what it's here for.....

 

[Pisceanfool]

pisceanfool, if you perceive a personal attack ( which is deeply frowned upon on AW) why not use the report feature for moderators to deal with said person/matter?
above right of post [!] that's what it's here for.....

No I don't mind I just see flaws in things and find personal attacks as weak and futile. I will say you contribute a lot more and that's why i respect you! off topic but i love your signature i think it's great you 'aim' to 'hook' people on astrology ^^

I guess I'm being an antagonist.

 

[Inconjunct]

Anyway, back to the topic at hand. I have the Moon conjunct Neptune. I've said before (and I'll say again) when I was a kid, even before I knew this, even before I'd heard of astrology, I displayed what I consider to be some very Neptunian traits. A strong imagination (I invented whole countries and planets in my back garden with just some free toys out of a cereal packet and a bike tyre to play with), extreme emotional sensitivity and empathy (I'd cry if my sister hit my teddy bear) and very VERY vivid dreams. Now, maybe I'm just describing most kids' experience, but I don't think so - the fact that these experiences are still with me today makes me think it's more than that.

 

[Ruka_5]

Anyway, back to the topic at hand. I have the Moon conjunct Neptune. I've said before (and I'll say again) when I was a kid, even before I knew this, even before I'd heard of astrology, I displayed what I consider to be some very Neptunian traits. A strong imagination (I invented whole countries and planets in my back garden with just some free toys out of a cereal packet and a bike tyre to play with), extreme emotional sensitivity and empathy (I'd cry if my sister hit my teddy bear) and very VERY vivid dreams. Now, maybe I'm just describing most kids' experience, but I don't think so - the fact that these experiences are still with me today makes me think it's more than that.

This is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about, well said.

Sure, in the charts of people who don't really have inner planets or luminaries aspecting their outers, or the outers on an angle, you probably could omit them and still get a pretty good read on them as a person.

But when it comes to the rest of us, it's essentially chopping off half of our charts, and you won't be able to make a whole lot of sense out of what's left. You'll end up with charts that really don't explain the people in front of you and seem wrong.

 

[waybread]

I do modern astrology, but am starting to read up on traditional astrology. However, this is more because of my interest in astrology's history than due to a belief I will switch "sides." I have not studied Vedic astrology, but have seen it produce some impressive results in chart interpretation. I do not subscribe to some of the religious beliefs on which it is based, so I probably will not practice it, either. I've not studied Chinese astrology, nor some of the other less-known varieties.

But surely the world of astrology is big enough for everyone. To me, this is all a matter of personal preference. Kind of like 3 musicians: one likes to play the harpsichord; one plays the piano; and the third one, an electronic keyboard. Yet they can all play the same tunes, despite the differences in their musical instruments and the dates at which they were invented.

So if you wanna use Pluto, use Pluto. If you don't wanna use Pluto, don't use Pluto. But don't try to force other people into a different kind of astrology by trying to shame them. It doesn't work, and merely comes across as unpleasant.

 

[Inconjunct]

Waybread - well said. Some people are way too sectarian about their particular astrological preferences. I'm interested in all the various schools of thought - at the moment, I'm investigating Uranian astrology while still continuing with my more "traditional" modern astrology course. I believe they all have something to teach us.

 

[dperez3894]

Outer planets normally generational unless they make an angle to a personal planet or the Ascendant.

I've got Pluto in Libra like everyone else in my generation but it's also conjunct my Ascendant which makes it personal. It also opposes my Sun & Venus(ruler of my Ascendant) in Aries and trines my Mars(ruler of my sun sign Aries).

So Pluto is personal to me in terms of life(Sun), relationships(Venus), action(Mars) and expression(Libra Ascendant).

 

[JUPITERASC]

Uranus, Neptune & Pluto are Generational Planets - Discuss

Outer planets normally generational unless they make an angle to a personal planet or the Ascendant.

I've got Pluto in Libra like everyone else in my generation but it's also conjunct my Ascendant which makes it personal. It also opposes my Sun & Venus(ruler of my Ascendant) in Aries and trines my Mars(ruler of my sun sign Aries).

So Pluto is personal to me in terms of life(Sun), relationships(Venus), action(Mars) and expression(Libra Ascendant).

Well put dperez, that makes a lot of commonsense

 

[Ruka_5]

I do modern astrology, but am starting to read up on traditional astrology. However, this is more because of my interest in astrology's history than due to a belief I will switch "sides." I have not studied Vedic astrology, but have seen it produce some impressive results in chart interpretation. I do not subscribe to some of the religious beliefs on which it is based, so I probably will not practice it, either. I've not studied Chinese astrology, nor some of the other less-known varieties.

But surely the world of astrology is big enough for everyone. To me, this is all a matter of personal preference. Kind of like 3 musicians: one likes to play the harpsichord; one plays the piano; and the third one, an electronic keyboard. Yet they can all play the same tunes, despite the differences in their musical instruments and the dates at which they were invented.

So if you wanna use Pluto, use Pluto. If you don't wanna use Pluto, don't use Pluto. But don't try to force other people into a different kind of astrology by trying to shame them. It doesn't work, and merely comes across as unpleasant.

This is it in a nutshell.

 

[Ruka_5]

Waybread - well said. Some people are way too sectarian about their particular astrological preferences. I'm interested in all the various schools of thought - at the moment, I'm investigating Uranian astrology while still continuing with my more "traditional" modern astrology course. I believe they all have something to teach us.

Yessssss loool. I'm really fascinated by Uranian astrology and have absolutely no idea why it hasn't caught on much yet. I remember being given the hasty explanation that it's because the planets in the system aren't 'real'...at which point I mentioned how the angles aren't actual planets either but points in space, just like the Uranians; same for BML and the Vertex, but they're commonly incorporated and seem to work too so why not the Uranians ....at which point people start pulling semantics games and throwing up smokescreens...there's definitely something to Uranian astrology though.

 

[Ruka_5]

Well put dperez, that makes a lot of commonsense

I...said pretty much the same thing dperez just said, pages ago and you dismissed it. LOL

 

[Inconjunct]

Yessssss loool. I'm really fascinated by Uranian astrology and have absolutely no idea why it hasn't caught on much yet. I remember being given the hasty explanation that it's because the planets in the system aren't 'real'...at which point I mentioned how the angles aren't actual planets either but points in space, just like the Uranians; same for BML and the Vertex, but they're commonly incorporated and seem to work too so why not the Uranians ....at which point people start pulling semantics games and throwing up smokescreens...there's definitely something to Uranian astrology though.

Uranian is quite complex, which is why it isn't more popular, I suspect. But people do use midpoints which are pure Uranian - when I discovered midpoints through my course, they were a revelation in terms of the way they opened up the birth chart. The trans-neptunians I'm less convinced by, but I'm told they work.

 

[Ruka_5]

Uranian is quite complex, which is why it isn't more popular, I suspect. But people do use midpoints which are pure Uranian - when I discovered midpoints through my course, they were a revelation in terms of the way they opened up the birth chart. The trans-neptunians I'm less convinced by, but I'm told they work.

I actually started a thread on another forum specifically about this and the main feedback I remember getting, is that no one practiced Uranian because they're just points in space and not actual planets. At which point, like I said before, I pointed out a lot of other astrological elements that aren't actual physical bodies, are used on a regular basis and pretty much got the runaround in response.

I absolutely believe the transneptunians work, but that like a lot of other things, they shouldn't be the main focus when interpreting a chart.

 

[JUPITERASC]

Uranus, Neptune & Pluto are Generational Planets - Discuss

I...said pretty much the same thing dperez just said, pages ago and you dismissed it. LOL

What I actually said re: dperez is related to my comments as follows:
In my opinion, the influence of the Outer planets is generational as I have said – and for the reasons I have already stated ie

I think it fair to point out to the reader that I did not ask the question and I did not initiate the thread On the contrary, I have made clear statements all along that the outer planets are a generational influence because:
(a)
the outer planets have only recently been discovered - in fact as far as Pluto is concerned it's mostly guesswork because Pluto is just entering the opposition to its discovery degree (22 Cancer) and there are no tried and tested delineations of Pluto in Capricorn, Aquarius, Pisces, Aries, Taurus, Gemini - it's all guesswork and experimentation
(b)
Uranus, Neptune and Pluto orbits of the sun are
Uranus 84 years
Neptune 168 years
Pluto 248 years


contrast these orbits with
Mercury 88 days
Venus 225 days
Mars 687 days
Jupiter 12 years
Saturn 30 years


of the entire world population, few experience a Uranus Return, none experience a Neptune Return, none experience a Pluto Return.


[I moved this discussion out of the Vertex thread, where it was going rapidly off-subject from what the OP asked, and onto a new thread devoted exclusively to outer planet discussion. - Moderator]

The thread was then moved and the title changed to the question “Are the Outer Planets Generational or Personal?” and the question is attributed to me, but I am not asking that question, instead I have the opinion that in my view the Outer Planets are Generational –it is the Moderator who chose to place my post below a question I have not asked!!!

if you read what I originally posted, and then read what dperez said, you'll notice that dperez agrees with me in part that the outer planets are generational. dperez adds that the generational Planet Pluto in Libra, because it is conjunct dperez Ascendant makes it personal for dperez … which makes some sense Is that sufficiently clear?

Outer planets normally generational unless they make an angle to a personal planet or the Ascendant. I've got Pluto in Libra like everyone else in my generation but it's also conjunct my Ascendant which makes it personal. It also opposes my Sun & Venus(ruler of my Ascendant) in Aries and trines my Mars(ruler of my sun sign Aries). So Pluto is personal to me in terms of life(Sun), relationships(Venus), action(Mars) and expression(Libra Ascendant).

 

[waybread]

It would be great, Ruka and Inconjunct, if you could start a thread on Uranian astrology. I don't know how to work with it, although the Astrodienst free charts pp. at www.astro.com allow you to input its hypothetical planets.

Actually, though, 3 of the angles have some reality. From an earth-centered perspective the ASC is the eastern horizon. If you are born at sunrise, your sun will conjunct it. The DC is the western horizon. If you are born at sunset, your sun will conjunct it. The MC is at the zenith--the highest point overhead. The IC is a little hypothetical because it is under the earth, but it is not hard to imagine it as the opposite of the MC.

We might add to your imaginary points list the Arabic parts, the vertex, and Black Moon Lilith. Then in harmonic charts, the planets' locations are also artificial.

 

[Inconjunct]

The only really *real* things in astrology are the planets, lets face it - but then is something *not real* because we can't see it or touch it? That brings up all sorts of philosophical nightmares LOL.

The trans-neptunians are described as "energy points" out at the far flung reaches of the solar system, and some of them were identified before astronomers discovered Pluto. Uranian astrologers use them in combination with the traditional planets, in midpoint pictures and solar arc directions.

That's about as far as my knowledge of Uranian goes at the moment, waybread, so starting a thread might not be advisable .