Astrological Parts. Known and Unknown...a project

[Phoenix Venus]

I gave some thought to what you're proposing here as to an explanation both ways....

.....and....

I LIKE IT...!!!​

Girl... you are getting too good at this....

Mad, mad, mad, mad skills...
...no doubt about it...
You gottem !

Thanks buddy

On another note ive been thinking about this part asc + neptune - pluto which is currently titled slyness.

Yeshuas part is at 25 scorpio:

" AN X-RAY PHOTOGRAPH.

KEYNOTE: The capacity to acquire a knowledge of the structural factors in all existence.

The true philosopher is able to grasp and significantly evaluate what underlies all manifestations of life. His mind's eye penetrates through the superficialities of existence and perceives the framework that gives an at least relatively permanent "form" to all organized systems. Thus if the structure is weak, deformed by persistent strain, or unbalanced, the basic causes of outer disturbances and dis-ease can be discovered.

This symbol concludes the forty-seventh five-fold sequence. It gives an added dimension to the preceding four. For instance, it provides the conscience of the individual who refuses to obey his society with a depth-understanding of what is wrong in the situation he faces. Beyond the powerful feeling quality of "peak experiences," the mind can understand the great Principles of which they were the manifestations. This is STRUCTURAL KNOWLEDGE in contrast to existential knowledge."


..... "slyness" just doesnt seem to fit the bill here.

Plus, my part is at 28 sag, which is also Yeshuas part of tragedy and His and I's composite Ceres and composite part of destiny... " AN OLD BRIDGE OVER A BEAUTIFUL STREAM IS STILL IN CONSTANT USE..... The beautiful necessity."

... I really dont see our comp part of destiny being about slyness....

Now, as to what it might actually represent, well im still working on it...

But this line from Yeshuas symbol is interesting.... " The true philosopher is able to grasp and significantly evaluate what underlies all manifestations of life"... Especially as the reverse part (as + pluto - neptune) is titled subtle & hidden changes.

... Im gonna spend some time letting it marinate. But maybe youd like to look up yours and see if you can come up with anything... If you have time.

 

[piercethevale]

Thanks buddy

On another note ive been thinking about this part asc + neptune - pluto which is currently titled slyness.

Yeshuas part is at 25 scorpio:

" AN X-RAY PHOTOGRAPH.

KEYNOTE: The capacity to acquire a knowledge of the structural factors in all existence.

The true philosopher is able to grasp and significantly evaluate what underlies all manifestations of life. His mind's eye penetrates through the superficialities of existence and perceives the framework that gives an at least relatively permanent "form" to all organized systems. Thus if the structure is weak, deformed by persistent strain, or unbalanced, the basic causes of outer disturbances and dis-ease can be discovered.

This symbol concludes the forty-seventh five-fold sequence. It gives an added dimension to the preceding four. For instance, it provides the conscience of the individual who refuses to obey his society with a depth-understanding of what is wrong in the situation he faces. Beyond the powerful feeling quality of "peak experiences," the mind can understand the great Principles of which they were the manifestations. This is STRUCTURAL KNOWLEDGE in contrast to existential knowledge."


..... "slyness" just doesnt seem to fit the bill here.

Plus, my part is at 28 sag, which is also Yeshuas part of tragedy and His and I's composite Ceres and composite part of destiny... " AN OLD BRIDGE OVER A BEAUTIFUL STREAM IS STILL IN CONSTANT USE..... The beautiful necessity."

... I really dont see our comp part of destiny being about slyness....

Now, as to what it might actually represent, well im still working on it...

But this line from Yeshuas symbol is interesting.... " The true philosopher is able to grasp and significantly evaluate what underlies all manifestations of life"... Especially as the reverse part (as + pluto - neptune) is titled subtle & hidden changes.

... Im gonna spend some time letting it marinate. But maybe youd like to look up yours and see if you can come up with anything... If you have time.

Yes, that "Part of Slyness"has been bugging me for sometime. In fact even yesterday while i was writing for the mundane thread I had going and kind of berated myself abit, thinking, "When are you going to do some serious thinking about it and figure out what it really influences?"

Either I'm deluding myself or I'm hitting on all eight cylinders of insight & mind today because it came to me so quickly...although I'm rather sure that in the way you posed the question to me and using the examples you did has something to do with that.

Where As Neptune is the "higher octave" of the planet Venus and that Asc. + Venus - Pluto + what we have determined to be as "Self Sacrifice" {In fact as to the one title that I found published for it, that is 'Popularity", I think we can just dispose of that altogether. Maybe I'll start a new coloured category of titles that should be disposed of by consenus but are only left on the list so as to keep people from posting that we forgot to list it.?] That same formula substituting Neptune for Venus is symbolically the means by which we attempt to get society to make sacrifices for the good.

As to what is derived from my own chart being the 19th degree of Capricorn: {ibid.}

"CAPRICORN 19°: A FIVE-YEAR-OLD CHILD CARRYING A BAG FILLED WITH GROCERIES.

KEYNOTE: Rising to the occasion when asked to assume social responsibilities ahead of one's normal development.

What seems to be implied at this stage of the cyclic process is the value of early conditioning in teaching one how to fulfill the responsibilities of everyday life in our modern society. This twentieth scene of the complete process has been entitled 'Group performance,' and today it is evident that Children at an early age are expected to assume a family role which at times will strain their natural capacities. This is part of the accelerating pace of our technological society.

This fourth stage symbol evokes the possibility of meeting a certain type of social opportunity which normally may seem premature. A pattern of ACCELERATED GROWTH can thus be established, with both positive and negative aspects. Rushing ahead of one's natural development may be damaging; yet we are living in a particularly dynamic period of man's evolution."

Keepin in mind also of the part of the book in which this heading appears. {ibid.}|
"
SCENE TWENTY: GROUP-PERFORMANCE
(Capricorn 16° to Capricorn 30°)
FIRST LEVEL: ACTIONAL "

So it is something that I must do actively and is oriented towards group performance {and I'm willing to wager that you see it clear as day now}This is a Part that is about how you try to influnce others to make sacrifices, you plea for community charity and such.

Look to the thread I just yesterday wrapped up and that's about the whole of what I was involved in writing. Asking fellow Yanks to give something up for the next generation, and those generations that follow.

I'll post this now, even though I jist awoke and haven't had my coffee or breakfast yet [it's evening...I've become such a creature of the night...] and come back and read it to my self and see if it still makes sense later...but if you online and reading it feel free to 'say what you will.' {Which, btw, is the name of a rap song I wrote....heheheh]

 

[piercethevale]

Now that I've had my coffee and some grub I'm thinking more clearly and I realized did write a rather hasty reply.

In the mundane thread I mention [i.e. Pluto conj. the natal U.S.A.'s M.C.] it is exactly what Rudhyar wrote as the Keyword{s} for his summation that is the sacrifice I see to be made. Those words being "Accelerated Growth".

In the event chart for Pluto conj. the USA's natal M.C. for the third and final time, this past Nov. 16th, {as Pluto now moves on ahead into the later half of the sign of Capricorn}, the I.C. of that chart [which is the "HOW" in a mundane interpretation, the "WHY" as to the "spiritual" matters,] is in the 8th degree of Cancer": {ibid.}

"CANCER 8°: A GROUP OF RABBITS DRESSED IN HUMAN CLOTHES WALK AS IF ON PARADE.

KEYNOTE: The tendency in all forms of life to imitate higher forms as a stimulus to growth.

This rather strange symbol points to what is essential in all first attempts at developing consciousness and furthering one’s growth through association with those who have already reached a superior evolutionary or mental level. Every seeker looks for an 'Exemplar.' The religious mystic speaks of 'the Imitation of Christ.' In Japan the music student sits in front of his teacher playing an instrument, and carefully imitates his every gesture."

In that same event chart for Pluto in conjunction to the USA's natal M.C. Ceres is in the 9th degree of Sagittarius, which also happens to be the same sign and degree that the USA"S natal Part of Noble and Illustrious Acquaintences {those that the chart bearer deems to be so} is found in, and by Rudhyar's interpretation and summation that is: {ibid.}

"SAGITTARIUS 9°: A MOTHER LEADS HER SMALL CHILD STEP BY STEP UP A STEEP STAIRWAY.

KEYNOTE: The need in any social situation to assist the less evolved in their management of the problems which society requires its members to solve.

A staircase does not present a natural difficulty to a very young child. Man builds stairs and therefore is responsible for assisting the child to climb them step by step. Social and cultural living is not 'natural.' The child must first be taught by example, then helped along as he imitates as well as he can the grownup's behavior. Climbing stairs is only an illustration of a general process. Every generation must involve itself in teaching the next even the simplest skills needed for social existence.

At the fourth stage of the preceding five-fold sequence we saw parents encouraging a little child to walk. Walking is a natural human function; climbing stairs is a skill made necessary by the building of several-storied houses — a product of civilization. What is implied here is SOCIAL CONCERN for the less evolved of society's members. "

It was the Sabian Symbolism found for the degree of the M.C. of the event chart pf the New Moon preceding the conj. of Pluto to the USA"S natal M.C. at: {ibid.}

"CAPRICORN 15°: IN A HOSPITAL, THE CHILDREN'S WARD IS FILLED WITH TOYS.

KEYNOTE: The responsibility of society to ensure the welfare and total health of the new generation.

The socio-cultural process must look to the future as well as to the past. It has created conditions which may harm the children who will carry forward its work, and it must try to repair these negative conditions through love as well as through physical care. In personal life, the individual should take great care of his fresh intuitions and his dreams of future growth. They are often fragile developments which the pressures of everyday life can easily distort or destroy.

This is the last stage of Scene Nineteen, which began with a powerful claim for socio-political power. The exercise of such a power can indeed produce social conditions which endanger the healthy and spiritual unfoldment of a community, and especially of its children. There is therefore constant need for TENDER CARE as well as skill to neutralize the destructive tensions of social living."

...and it is evident and can be found in what Phoenix Venus found to be the post natal New Moon Hyleg of the U.S.A.'s natal chart in the 15th degree of Scorpio: {ibid.}


"SCORPIO 15°: CHILDREN PLAYING AROUND FIVE MOUNDS OF SAND.

KEYNOTE: Early steps in the development of a mind seeking to be attuned to the higher level of human evolution.

This is a particularly cryptic symbol. It may be deciphered if one realizes that Man's essential destiny is to develop as a five-fold being, a 'Pentagram' or five-pointed star. Number 5 symbolizes mind in its most creative and penetrating aspect, while number 4 refers to the life processes operating at present within the earth's biosphere. Our Western civilization has realized only the lower level of this vibration 5; i.e. mind contaminated by compulsive instincts and emotional involvement. Some individuals, however, are born with a special potential for development of the higher, creative mind, and in social circumstances favoring this development. In most cases, they are still 'playing around' with their unusual capacity. They are in the kindergarten stage of this higher mind development.

In this final stage of the forty-fifth sequence of five symbols the transcendent possibilities of mental evolution, which require interpersonal communion in consciousness, are evoked. The free spirit of true scientific inquiry is only a foreshadowing of such a type of mind, which demands dedication to mankind as a whole. What is seen here is FUTURE-ORIENTED GROWTH."

{...and please note Rudhyar's words that are so pertinent to what i'm trying to get across, r.e. "Our Western civilization has realized only the lower level of this vibration 5; i.e. mind contaminated by compulsive instincts and emotional involvement." ...and... "They are in the kindergarten stage of this higher mind development." ...and most especially... "possibilities of mental evolution, which require interpersonal communion in consciousness". Theat "Interpersonal Communion in Consciousness" that your childre and grandchildren are not getting from the State, the preschools and especially not the television.}

...and in reference to Rudhyars fianl sentence and Keywords for the Sabian Symbol of the 9th degree of Sagittarius, r.e. "What is implied here is SOCIAL CONCERN for the less evolved of society's members." presently it isn't that the next is less evolved but rather is being retarded in, and by, the awareness that of our society having already evolved to that level previously.
As I watched the social concerns of the "left", "the radicals", the "Flower Children" aka "Hippies" as they were labled by the media, become gradually of less concern as the seduction of consumerism continously worked its' wiles and many that had considered themselves "Hippies" sold out and became "Yuppies" and that carrot on the end of the stick called "the American Dream" was one that was made to apprear increasingly all the more desirious while the stick grew longer and resulted in many women that would have been quite content to be full time mothers and manager of their homes instead seek and take employment themselves to add to the family income while the children were given over to day care centers, put in pre-school or left with the television as a baby sitter leaving the State, Hollywood and Madison Avenue in charge of their development during their essential "formative years"

The sacrifice, that is indicated and being called for is to, give up chasing that carrot, settle for what material comfort that one can live with, and adequetly, and to use what time is spared by doing as such towards, not material wealth for your childrens future inheritance but, the societal health and spiritual wealth that you can leave as the legacy for your children and grandchildrens future ...not to mention what a family, as a unit, is both potentially and truly can be.

So, what do you think about my take on this "Part of Slyness", am I seeing it in the same manner that you have concluded to as yet, or have inclinations towards some similar conclusion, something different perhaps, or are you still "marinating" the idea? { suddenly I'm hungry for something marinated... some brain food, marinated...}

...BUT....! {I feel like I'm one of those "Cheesy" announcers selling "Ginsu Knives" or "Sham Wow towels" on late night television.... with that spiel: "...but that's not all! You will also receive a lifetime supply of monogrammed swizzle sticks in your choice of one of seven different decorator colours!"}

I'm not quite done making my case here yet... I wish to call the attention of the court to the evidence marked; "Exibit: USA natal Part of Slyness"

...in a little while, this has turned out to be quite a bit of writing which I hadn't anticipated on for today... but it's all good...In fact it's really good... Good call here, P.V. ...most timely to approach and take a stab at solving the enigma of the ''Part of Slyness" ...as I was ready tackle it finally.

 

[piercethevale]

At this point {as I have reviewed everything I've written tonight so far...} Let me refine my proposal for a title for this "Part".

I'm seeing it as like what Suryakant's friend and Astrologer that cast his chart back in '79 saw for the 12th house cusp [which I still don't know if it was his own conclusion or whether He was taught the technique] that it represents what you see as the answer to what you perceive as being the greastest problem, or challege, the world faces.
As everyone will have any one of the 360 Divine precepts that the Sabian Symbols represent as for that cusp it surely can't be said for sure by anyone, other than the creator, theirself, as to what the greatest problem, or challenge, facing the world is when you are born... or that which presently is, either...as surely the problems come and go as is the nature of things.

So this "Part" is like that in its' way. In that one will see it as that sacrifice all of society, their self included, must make as an effort towards the greater good of the whole.

 

[JUPITERASC]

Astrological Parts and Degree Symbols are a separate topic
Astrological Parts date from ancient astrological times
for info on Parts http://www.amazon.com/Bonatti-Lots-...&keywords=Bonatti on Lots&tag=viglink22513-20

 

[piercethevale]

Astrological Parts and Degree Symbols are a separate topic
Astrological Parts date from ancient astrological times
for info on Parts http://www.amazon.com/Bonatti-Lots-...&keywords=Bonatti on Lots&tag=viglink22513-20

Yeah, but may I remind you that this is the degree symbolism forum and Bonatti knew nothing of degree symbolism, or if He did he never wrote of it. Besides He was living in a time when it was believed that the Sun orbited the Earth, natal astrology was hardly practiced at all as for one good reason being that most people had no way of ascertaing the correct time, another as to being able to determine the the precise location and those two factors alone are so essential to be able to derive the correct degrees for the astrological parts location in a natal chart. As that natal chart has to be as accurate as can be determined to be as actually is. Most recorded birth times for Americans prior to 1940's are generalizations and as many clocks and wrist watches as there were in circulation and use, if a time was recorded and attested to be precise, those time keeping devices were usually arbitrarily set to something as only close to what the "time operator" that most telephone systems used to provide, had stated it to be... nothing comparable to the preciseness exercised today in setting the time. Every computer, every cellphone is set pretty doggone close to, if in fact not exactly to, an atomic clock.

The degree of the Ascendant changes every four minutes, on the average, and a matter of mere seconds can make all the difference as to what many of the Parts might be derived to be located in... and any number of those Astrological Parts could be of the most important concern to the chart bearer.

I know this all too well from my having done at least a couple of hundred natal chart analyses in my time.


I am reminded here of what i heard about the early days of the automobile where as there was usually one in the crowd yelling, "Get a horse".

Which is not a bad idea... why don't you get on one and ride it on out of here?

 

[piercethevale]

Just another "Side Show Distraction"... or "Road Side Distraction"... some just like to keep throwing them out there and have nothing better to do with their time.... and I don't like having to leave a "bumpy road" for others to follow...

ifyaknowaddimean?

Paving the road with the best intentions and smoothing out the bumps, since 1984.

 

[piercethevale]

Astrological Parts and Degree Symbols are a separate topic
Astrological Parts date from ancient astrological times
for info on Parts http://www.amazon.com/Bonatti-Lots-...&keywords=Bonatti on Lots&tag=viglink22513-20

A rather interesting thing occured here a few moments ago.As I had two windows open in the forum and the window open on thread on Astrological Parts here I had in the "simple blue" style of the choice offered by the forum. I was in the thread on the Astrological Parts derived from the Yeshu'a/Jesus chart in the other open window which was set to the 'futura' style offered...so there was no mistaking between the two.

And in the Yeshu'a Parts thread . Jupiter Asc. posted a link to amazon.com [which is unusual in itself, ol' Jupe usually is plugging "Skyscript', but that is another matter] and then a second post from Jupe appears and I replied ...posted a couple of them...and then they disappeared, but they somehow got transferred to this thread?

As I said. I was only involved with writing in the Yeshu'a Parts thread and the window to this thread only remained open and in a different syle, as I noted, because I had not gotten around to closing it. I had five windows open in total, the other three being, one to my facebook page, one to my email archives as I was refering to some info from that source a few hours ago and one to a current news item I hadn't finished reading... and will later on.

I'm just curious as to how the posts were apparently shifted to another thread, this thread, and in the furura style that I hadn't set for this thread?

As your reply in this thread, "Astrological Parts and Degree Symbols are a separate topic Astrological Parts date from ancient astrological times", both demonstrates and proves that it is out of context here and in context as a follow up to your post and my reply in the other thread.

You can also note the time of my reply to your post in the other thread that it is before this one, and demonstrates as to what I mean about being out of context as it is out of context to this thread , but it is in context sequentially by time and in the other thread as your post above in this thread demonstrates as it is time stamped 3:33 AM,

Here's the screen shots I took for proof.
Your initial post.


...and my reply.


You've either got mad skills at hacking, have a magic computer, or some assistance from someone on the staff as .... oh, some position or another that has some control that will allow such "hanky panky" ? Or did you get a position here on the moderator staff or something as like that which will allow you as such actions?

Like I said, "Haters are going to be haters, no matter what" ...and they are everywhere.

oh, and I took screen shots of everything ...just so if any more "panky" gets to be your "hanky"... I have all the proof I need.


...sheeesh, like I got nothing better to do than deal with the tantrums of the fading "keepers of archaic astrological nonsense of the the Dork Ages" all day and night...

Your friendly modern and efficient neighborhood astrologer, me...ptv ...dragging them kicking, screaming and tantrum throwing into the future.

 

[piercethevale]

Ya, know...
I'd cry foul and file a complaint with Admin. but I other things to do this morning... and as I figure all these posts will just get erased and be given the explanation that it was to delete argumentive postings or something as such... I figure that if I don't complain they'll probably be up and visable to a lot of you members and non members alike, for a good while...long enough, and give this incident as much exposure as I can milk it for.

Drink up, milk does a body good!

 

[piercethevale]

It gets even weirder in that I didn't reply to the post in the other thread until 4:06 a.m.
..huh? ...go figure?

...amazing computer skills being demonstrated here...

which amounted to my having to waste a little over two hours of my time this morning dealing with the tantrums {... or is it the "Death Throes"?} of the "Worshipers of the Gilded Lily" and all things astrological that are of pre-seventeenth century science.

 

[piercethevale]

whoa...
Maybe he's got a "time machine".....


...Cooooool...

 

[Phoenix Venus]

Oh, how nice. I see the trad camp is still feeling threatened enough by us to send our dear friend jupasc in here to try and throw us off our tracks. Nice effort, jupasc.

I dont really have anything to comment on that besides the fact that it is quite clear that we use the sabians to ascertain the meaning of unknown parts, and quite accurately if i may say so myself... And what have you been doing with your time? ..... Ya wanna help .....? Aww ptv i think he secretly wants to help...

Anyways, ptv..... Hold the phone right this minute. You made a rap? You have got to share.... If i saw a vid of that i might just die....

Regarding the part, i think you are on to something here as far a part of societal sacrifice. The part definitely does seem to do with group participation.

You mentioned USAs part but i see you got distracted for a bit so ill go ahead and post it.

Sag 17 (ibid):

" AN EASTER SUNRISE SERVICE DRAWS A LARGE CROWD.

KEYNOTE: The culturally stimulated longing for group participation in a process of rebirth.

Since the very early days of man's evolution, religions and cults of various types have used the most significant periods in the year's cycle to dramatize the deepest longings of human nature, thus giving them direction, meaning, and through group action, a greater dynamic intensity. Easter is the Christian way of celebrating the coming of spring and the rebirth of life on this earth after the hardships of winter.

At this second stage of the five-fold sequence we see, in contrast to the first, man discovering in nature's cycles great movements that stimulate his spiritual quest for the psychic and mental equivalent of solar light and warmth. The obvious Keyword here is REBIRTH."

.... So it doesnt seem to be about what needs to be sacrificed at the group level but ultimately what sacrifices need to be made for....

Take Yeshua for instance who led a transpersonal life whose symbol is about structural knowledge.... He would strip his life of everything but what is essential towards acquiring that foundational knowledge....

Its interesting that USAs part mentions rebirth with pluto in the formula... As you mentioned it seems to deal with necessary group change towards a greater good.

 

[piercethevale]

Oh, how nice. I see the trad camp is still feeling threatened enough by us to send our dear friend jupasc in here to try and throw us off our tracks. Nice effort, jupasc.

I dont really have anything to comment on that besides the fact that it is quite clear that we use the sabians to ascertain the meaning of unknown parts, and quite accurately if i may say so myself... And what have you been doing with your time? ..... Ya wanna help .....? Aww ptv i think he secretly wants to help...

Anyways, ptv..... Hold the phone right this minute. You made a rap? You have got to share.... If i saw a vid of that i might just die....

Regarding the part, i think you are on to something here as far a part of societal sacrifice. The part definitely does seem to do with group participation.

You mentioned USAs part but i see you got distracted for a bit so ill go ahead and post it.

Sag 17 (ibid):

" AN EASTER SUNRISE SERVICE DRAWS A LARGE CROWD.

KEYNOTE: The culturally stimulated longing for group participation in a process of rebirth.

Since the very early days of man's evolution, religions and cults of various types have used the most significant periods in the year's cycle to dramatize the deepest longings of human nature, thus giving them direction, meaning, and through group action, a greater dynamic intensity. Easter is the Christian way of celebrating the coming of spring and the rebirth of life on this earth after the hardships of winter.

At this second stage of the five-fold sequence we see, in contrast to the first, man discovering in nature's cycles great movements that stimulate his spiritual quest for the psychic and mental equivalent of solar light and warmth. The obvious Keyword here is REBIRTH."

.... So it doesnt seem to be about what needs to be sacrificed at the group level but ultimately what sacrifices need to be made for....

Take Yeshua for instance who led a transpersonal life whose symbol is about structural knowledge.... He would strip his life of everything but what is essential towards acquiring that foundational knowledge....

Its interesting that USAs part mentions rebirth with pluto in the formula... As you mentioned it seems to deal with necessary group change towards a greater good.

...dang, I forgot...but hold on a minute. {Dang, pesky distractions...!}
I have Capricorn 17* on my list here by my desk...did I copy another one down wrong again?

 

[piercethevale]

but, getting back to your reply...particulary:

".... So it doesnt seem to be about what needs to be sacrificed at the group level but ultimately what sacrifices need to be made for...."

...hmmm?
So...then, what is the other Part of Self Sacrifice in relation too, as you see it. How do the two differ?

 

[piercethevale]

Man, it's almost noon here and i had intended to get some sleep about 3 hours ago...and then I thought I might just take a peek at the Full Moon chart for Saturday's event...esp. seeing as how I'm getting further and further behind with the current stuff...and I had to go and notice that Asc... and spent a couple of hours writing a few posts to people on facebook aabout it... and ...YAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawn.....
I'm getting mighty bushed.

That rap number? I haven't gotten around to doing anything with it... I'm thinkin' a video...with clips from the movie "Pulp Fiction" particularly Samuel Jackson's scene where he is a bit upset with some young punk that can't seem to tell him waht Marcellus Wallace looks like....
...as the young impertinent one can only continuously reply "What...?"


As the "rap" goes...

"Say what you will, say what you will, say what you will, say ...What?
..you will, say what you will, say what you will, say....What?
...you will say what..."

..{and then flash to the clip of Samuel Jackson wherein He has become very irate and points his gun at the head of the nervously and about to meet his maker tongue tied one...and says to him>>> "Say....."
Oh, you know how the scene plays out, dontcha?

for those that don't know what scene I'm refering too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wEnb9yIoes

 

[Phoenix Venus]

but, getting back to your reply...particulary:

".... So it doesnt seem to be about what needs to be sacrificed at the group level but ultimately what sacrifices need to be made for...."

...hmmm?
So...then, what is the other Part of Self Sacrifice in relation too, as you see it. How do the two differ?

Yeah, its sag 17 as listed in the USA parts thread and i just double checked it.

After contemplating it a bit with your question in mind, i do see a commonality amongst both sets of parts. lets look at Yeshuas for some more clarity.

Part of self sacrifice @ 7 pisces:

" ILLUMINED BY A SHAFT OF LIGHT, A LARGE CROSS LIES ON ROCKS SURROUNDED BY SEA MIST.

KEYNOTE: The spiritual blessing which strengthens individuals who, happen what may, stand uncompromisingly for their own truth.

Men who do not depend upon collective values, traditions or support but seek at any cost to be true to their individual self and destiny almost inevitably face some kind of crucifixion. They are sustained only by the power within them, to which a light above answers. The symbol tells us: "Be true to thine own self, and in the midst of the outer confusion displayed by those surrounding you, you will realize what you really are as an Individual — a son of God."

This second stage symbol presents us with a realization in polar opposition to that evoked by the preceding scene. It implies the supreme worth of a life guided by an inner voice and manifesting a high degree of SELF-ASSERTION."

Note the phrase "Men who... seek at any cost to be true to their individual self and destiny almost inevitably face some kind of crucifixion."

So.. He did not sacrifice his "self-assertion" but rather He sacrificed himself in order to stand up for His truth...

Now his part neptune-pluto @ scorp 25:

" X-RAY PHOTOGRAPH.

KEYNOTE: The capacity to acquire a knowledge of the structural factors in all existence.

The true philosopher is able to grasp and significantly evaluate what underlies all manifestations of life. His mind's eye penetrates through the superficialities of existence and perceives the framework that gives an at least relatively permanent "form" to all organized systems. Thus if the structure is weak, deformed by persistent strain, or unbalanced, the basic causes of outer disturbances and dis-ease can be discovered.

This symbol concludes the forty-seventh five-fold sequence. It gives an added dimension to the preceding four. For instance, it provides the conscience of the individual who refuses to obey his society with a depth-understanding of what is wrong in the situation he faces. Beyond the powerful feeling quality of "peak experiences," the mind can understand the great Principles of which they were the manifestations. This is STRUCTURAL KNOWLEDGE in contrast to existential knowledge."

Now note the phrase " it provides the conscience of the individual who refuses to obey his society with a depth-understanding of what is wrong in the situation he faces. Beyond the powerful feeling quality of "peak experiences," the mind can understand the great Principles of which they were the manifestations".

... So this would be about the underlying structures that are founding a society... Something that sacrifices should be made for.

 

[piercethevale]

Interesting! {Danm, you're good}
I like the way you let the words of Dane guide you. Too many that I know that use these symbols have been to ready to dismiss Danes words and reformulate them or re-interpet the symbol and some even change the symbol as to something as to their likeing... and Dane noticed that Marc Jones had changed a few after studying them for a few years. That there alone, tells us that it is a very tenuous step to take to go wandering off from his interpretations thinking that you can "handle it" and start changing things.

...anyways, So, by what you've given me for thought here ...as it seems to me you focused right on the gist of the matter... spotted it like an eagle.... and I believe what he sacrificed then was his "standing" as a good citizen... by "Good Citizen", I mean a obediant and complacent one. One that accepted his "station" as the political and the religious authorities/leaders saw Yeshu'a as someone that was lower in social rank and of a lower "station" and that He should act accordingly...which He certainly didn't...at least from what I know of His story.

 

[piercethevale]

Greetings.
I've now added six new formulae of which four are entirely new subjects. The other two are different formulae for Parts already listed for Parts bearing the same title. Those already listed could be in error as the two carrying the same title are from the Winstar astrological software, that Michael Erlewine developed, that I owned and had used, for a couple of years, until that particular computer was stolen from my apt. in 2009. As I can't recall where I got the other two formulae from and think that it was very likely from an internet website, or possibly even a contribution from a forum member, I have to give Mr. Erlewine's software the benefit of the doubt as, I know him just well enough to know, He is a very exacting man for detail and thoroughness and takes great pride in his work. I am adding them in addition to the others and not deleting any, as for the reason that my opinion is not an objective factor here. In fact all of the following I got from the three screen shots that I took of forum member "Imnotthere's" Astrological Parts that were derived from his natal chart by that Winstar software some years ago. As I came across them today in a forgotten file that was one of many on a backup disc I made some years ago.

So... Here's what's new.

Asc. + Jupiter - Cusp 5th: "Speculation"

...and I'd like to call Phoenix Venus' attention to this next Part as we both had been under the assumption that it was one of those that are listed as unknown and also has a formula structure that is the same as those of which are known as the "Seven Hermetic Lots".

Asc. + Jupiter - Part of Fortune: "Success"

Asc. + Moon - Ruler 1st House: "Killing Planet" {that already listed with the same title has the Cusp of the 12th as the "Trigger"}

Asc. + Cusp 7th - Venus: "Partners"

Asc. + Part of Fortune - Ruler 1st House: "Sorrow" {that already listed with the same title has the Cusp of the 1st as the "Trigger"}

...and I have been aware of the following for some time but was reluctant to listing it. As for the reason it wasn't already on the list, there's a couple of points of contention, one being that it is not titled as a "Part". The other point is plainly evident, I believe, as I think you'll see from the following formula and what is claimed to have been derived from it.

Mars + Saturn - M.C.: "Death (Point)"

Which like the Hyleg planet, which is also called "the giver of life", the "apheta", the "prorogator" increasingly became an issue among astrologers over many years as to the dubious ethics of predicting the length of another persons life and subsequently eroded in usage until these more modern times when the practice of such had finally been discontinued and all terms associated with such practice were eliminated from the vocabulary of, at least, common use among astrologers especially in professional consultation with clientele.
I figured that I'd list it just so as for the purpose of creating the most comprehensive list compiled and available on the internet.

If anyone has any objections, especially the mods or admin. please let me know and I'll delete it.

...And if anyone has something to contribute to the list, a new formula, an alternative title for an existing one, evidence to present or published source that states something posted to be irrefutably otherwise... PLEASE CONTRIBUTE, and thank you.
ptv

 

[piercethevale]

Well, as I spent a good two and a half to three hours writing a reply to a post I stumbled upon in the "natal" sub forum in response to a thread asking if Pluto has any astrological significance, which is an older thread and my post being #80 it'll likely get little notice and little read, so since in my post I revealed quite a bit of, heretofore, previously unreleased information I've gathered from research the last few years concerning the transit of Pluto and also Uranus and Neptune during the Civil War between the United States and the Confederate States of America, that I was planning on keeping most of under wraps for a book project upcoming {as publishers do prefer printing books that contain original material.} but I'd rather reach a few dozen astrologers that will recognize valid knowledge and technique when they see it and go on to utilize it themselves than sell a few hundred thousand books to a general public that will most likely only read it out of plain curiosity.

Consider it a Christmas present from me to all of you.


>>>Copied and pasted as follows >>> >>>

Pluto just crossed the mid haven of the natal chart of the United States* for the first time in the nations history three times this past year and then just left the one degree orb of conjunction on December 6th. During the Civil War Pluto was conjunct the Part of Race aka Part of Racial Consciousness aka Part of Galvanization {Asc. + Moon - Pluto} derived from the USA natal chart and is at 10* Taurus 45', in a one degree orb of conjunction or less from April 1862 to January 1865 and also to the Part of Hope aka Part of Integrity {Asc. + Mercury - Jupiter } derived from the USA natal chart at 10* Taurus 14', beginning just some weeks earlier and ending the relative same. General Lee surrendered on April 9th, 1865 and when president Lincoln was assassinated on April 14th and Mercury was conjunct the Part of Racial Consciousness at the time, Uranus conj the Part of Suicide {Asc. + C8 - Neptune} at 25* Taurus 36', Pluto was at 12* Taurus 19' and was conj the USA natal Part of Retribution {Asc. + Sun - Mars} at 13* Taurus 15' {and also the Part of Slander aka Part of Timidity Asc. + Saturn - Neptune although it's a Part that of which title I've yet to do research on and confirm...at 13* Taurus 52'}and was on that degree for a quite some time while the infamous "Restoration of the South" was initiated.
When President Andrew Johnson declared the war over on May 9th, Neptune was in direct motion at 09* Aries 29' and conjunct the USA natal Part of Transformation at 09* Aries 29" and the natal Part of Liberty at 09* Aries 37'.

Still want to believe that Pluto is some ineffectual pebble in the heavens?
In the revealing light of all that evidence ...and I have more, lots more...do you seriously believe that you will convince people that Pluto has no influence on our lives?


*The "Zero Hour" USA natal chart, 12:00:01 a.m. July 4, 1776, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

 

[piercethevale]

I cleaned up, that is to say that I made it more concise, clearer and up to date with what understandings we have accumulated to date, the footnotes on the Part of Hyleg and the Part of Sudden Advancement aka Part of Nemesis.

They both had become near unintelligible from all the editing that has transpired over time. So, I pretty much re-wrote both from scratch. It doesn't mean these are the final definitive, just that they are more concise statements of where our limits of understanding are at present.

If anyone thinks they could be further improved let me know.