Deceptive people..

[kizmetbaby]

Money...oh yeah. You have NO idea. He STILL makes money off me. He was the biggest mistake of my life...and I couldn't see it. In a perfect world we'd never have to ever speak to each other again. Yuck!

 

[4leafclovah]

That really sucks. Well, at least you have the experience to never let it happen again right?

 

[kizmetbaby]

That really sucks. Well, at least you have the experience to never let it happen again right?

Ha! Never again...

I have the South Node conjunct and Chiron opposing Venus...I gave up a looooong time ago.

 

[Charm]

I have neptune in the 1st trine my moon. I have been known to be gullible. I had to grow out of it in my youth. But still, I have an innocent quality to always want to idealize people and think the best of them. For example, I never know what's going on in the gossip mill at work. I always just assume that everyone has good intentions like me! It took me a long time to accept the fact that people can just be evil. But that was in my 20's! Anyways I agree with neptune in 1st being intuitive, artistic, and head in the clouds!!!

As far as deceptive people. You have to look at a scorpionic influence. I have scorpio rising conjunct uranus in scorpio. I can be very private. The scorpios that I know keep a secret just for the sake of keeping one. So, that can turn in to deception depending upon the situation or person. Anyways, that's my 2 cents!

 

[deanna]

Mercury opposition Neptune
This confirgeration may cause someone to purposefully mystify or deceive others.

I have it and I can be convincing at times. But I gave up the deceptiveness/fakeness a while back. It was too much work and once I became a mom- and turned 40- there is only the truth to live by because there is nothing more real and wonderful than having a child.

--De

 

[gaer]

Right on, Clovah...I promise I didn't take it in a bad way at all. : )

Check this out though...if you want to see the chart of a bonafide pathological liar...the mean kind...astro.com this one...

7/12/66
408 am
Bremerhaven, Germany

You have all the elements in there...an abusive person...pathological tendencies...charisma...evil to the nth degree...

Can we assume you mean December 7th and not July 12th???

 

[Kingsley]

Here is a compuslive lier, his pants have been on fire thats for sure. He doesn't even let his left hand know what his right is doing although I think he got into some heavy trouble so he has reduced his activities to a lesser degree.

Hey I found a way to scrub the chart details in Paint.

k

 

[wayne penner]

While Neptune is often deceptive, it is more often self-deceptive than actually evil. An afflicted Saturn is more serious and can indicate a person capable of active deception.

Criminal behavior is different from criminal thought however - we have all wanted to kill the neighbor who plays his car stereo too loud, but were he actually injured in a wreck we would be the first to help him.

There is active and passive deception, the former is a conscious act in order to coerce another, usually for a criminal purpose, the second is complicated by vanity and self-approbation and is often harmless, as are the exaggerations of an afflicted Jupiter.

In all cases of active deception the person consciously makes a moral choice, and this involves the whole chart, not just Neptune.

One of the most famous deceivers in history was Adolf Hitler, but he had an obscure Neptune only semi-sextile the Sun. However, Saturn was elevated in the 10th in Leo and badly afflicted by Mars (and Venus). He was almost incapable of telling the truth, by design, and spoke and acted only in order to advance his own agenda.

Richard Nixon, another wonderful liar, had Sol opposition Neptune and Moon square Saturn in the 9th. Nixon was simply a scheming fool who eventually got entangled in his own lies, but the Moon Saturn square caused his downfall.
Bill Clinton, who lies all the time, has Neptune rising, but Mercury is conjunct
Saturn in Leo.

Saturn is more important than Neptune when it comes to deception.

 

[kizmetbaby]

Sorry about that...I keep forgetting...

July 12, 1966 is the date.

 

[Kingsley]

Mercury and Saturn will do it Wayne.

cheers

kingsley

 

[Nexus7]

I had a feeling that somone else with a Sun in Pisces square Neptune would pipe up and say they were nothing like the young man I once encountered. Just to emphasise again that this is where 'level' can and does make a difference. Unfortunately I don't remember what other aspects this particular person had in his chart. He had a Virgo rising and a Taurus Moon, his moon not seeming to receive much in the way of horrendous afflictions.

He did come for a reading, saying that he and his wife wanted to stay together sand bring up their baby, but I got the sense that they all felt a little trapped. Eventually, I learnt that he had left his wife and child for an oder, much richer woman.

He had been in the habit of cutting his wrists from the age of 11. I am sure that this is just about the less fortunate ways that Pisces can manifest, as he reminded me a lot of someone else I once encountered, and for whom I did a reading against my better instincts (I also did tarot at the time).

She had a Pisces Moon caught up on the opposition to Saturn opposing the Uranus/Pluto. She showed me scars where she had slashed herself. She tried (unsuccessfuly) to steal from me too and later I read that she had been convicted for shoplifting.

With situations like this, it is more a matter of becoming sadder and wiser and getting a better sense of whaT you cannot do for other people and possibly too, who not to read for.

In other situations, here could be other configurations that might be the red flags waving. I do also remember one article that showeed up charts for both mafia dons and the cops that stalked them. Interesting here, it was virtually impossible to differentiate from the charts alone who was a don and who a cop.

 

[smilingsteph]

I can be deceptive myself, not to hurt others, but when I am telling stories or I am stuck in a situation I can easily whip up some story and get out of things...I am pretty good at telling lies, not that I am proud to say this..
I had to lie for my mother when she was too drunk to go to work at the age of 7 or 8, had to call in for her...
Had to lie so that no one would want to come over to my house to see the way we lived
Had to lie when other family members asked about if my parents were drinking
Had to lie, about chores to avoid getting either verbally abused or sometimes physically abused, by my drunk uncle
So my basic life as a child was telling some sort of lie.....
I have turned this around into using it when telling stories, I can be very creative and expressive with it...
I still catch myself lying even when there is no need to lie....it is NEVER to hurt others....I just dont understand why I do it....
There is no doubt that neptune is the entitiy involved, no doubt...mine is near the MC....so lying to get people to like me?
Well I think that neptune in the first near the ascendant:
They go out in the world being very sensitive, as if they take a step out of themselves and see others through a lens; acting as a medium of thoughts and feelings for others;
This also can include that these people are very easily manipulated or easily lied to...
So I do not agree with Neptune in the first is thought to be a liar....

 

[Nexus7]

I think that Pisces or Neptune energy can be among he most difficult to assess, in terms how they manifest and on what level. I don't think it is possible to decide that someone might be deceptive on the strength of a Sun in Pisces square Neptune or not. My red flags came from watching the way the person I mentioned behaved in the flesh after seeing his chart, not from drawing conclusions from looking at the chart alone. It was only by watching the person for a while, that I really got the measure of him. With a father like his (I spoke to him on the phone once, his state left little to the imagination), I don't think this lad had much of a role model. It is still a mystery for me how he grew up to become so self-seeking at bottom, however. That is what I was unable to fathom on first meeting him.

There is a book on midpoints by Charles Harvey and Mike Harding, where charts of individuals wih Neptune on the Sun/Moon midpoint are discussed at great length. Examples included someone who was a pioneer in filming creatures under the sea, a mystic chaneller, a narcotics gangster, an artist, a forger of artists and a singer.

 

[wayne penner]

I sometimes wonder if deception also has to do with the rising sign and it's relationship to the 12th house.

The rising sign is the filter through which we view the world as well as express ourselves. If the Ascending degree is afflicted by Saturn or Neptune, or if the ruling planet is afflicted and has any relation to the 12th or the 12th house ruler I would expect some degree of deception according to the nature of the aspect. Also, the 8th, as the house of secrets should be involved. Obviously Mercury would be involved in all cases of deceptiveness.

A few examples of great deceivers:

Bill Clinton's 12th is ruled by Mercury, which conjoins Saturn.

Adolf Hitler has Neptune in the 8th and Saturn severely afflicting the Ascendant ruler Venus. Uranus is in the 12th opposite Mercury.

George W Bush has Sun in 12th square the ruler of the 12th, Luna. Neptune on the cusp of the 3rd and Pisces rules the 8th.

I haven't researched this so I just put this forward as an idea.

 

[gaer]

While Neptune is often deceptive, it is more often self-deceptive than actually evil. An afflicted Saturn is more serious and can indicate a person capable of active deception.

I find it very difficult to isolate factors. For instance, last night as I spent a great deal of time looking at Mercury and Uranus square and in opposition, I was either lucky or I was looking in the right direction. For instance, in composers, I looked for people who were geniuses, who were known for breaking rules and looking ahead, and of course for those who are admired for the expressiveness of their music.

One example of this would be Bela Bartok, who turned the world more or less on end with his combination of folk songs, dissonance (tonal) and new ideas. So it's not surprising that he is yet again another perso with Mercury opposite Uranus. But where is Neptune? Sextile Mercury, trine Uranus. I think in art, in comedy and even in invention, along with brilliance of mind, you also need intuition, and the greatest ideas often seem to come from nowhere. I have woken up with music in my head, struggling to write it down before I forget it.

For the same reason, I think (as in all the things we talk about) there are multiple things to look at for deception.

It takes imagination to lie, at least in a convincing manner. I would link that to Neptune (among other things). But it takes a plan too, so that would at least involve Mercury—and other factors that show a sharp mind. It all has to work, which takes a strange kind of discipline. So throw in Saturn, for holding it all together. This would just skim the surface, and as always it's useless to begin without looking at the whole chart.

There is active and passive deception, the former is a conscious act in order to coerce another, usually for a criminal purpose, the second is complicated by vanity and self-approbation and is often harmless, as are the exaggerations of an afflicted Jupiter.

I agree. When people literally do not know when they are stating a fact, exaggerating a bit or totally making things up, I'd look perhaps for a combination of hard aspects to Jupiter and Neptune, but again that is a simplification.

Saturn is more important than Neptune when it comes to deception.

I'm open to any theories here, because I have not know liars personally. However, one person I personally think is a liar is Sarkozy.

He has Uranus/Jupiter conjunct, and that conjunction is inconjunct Mercury. Neptune is square that same conjunction, trine to Mercury. Finally Saturn is trine that same conjunction, square to Mercury. Finally, Pluto is opposite Mercury. And that only scratches the surface.

I did not even know who this man was when a friend of mine in France mentioned his name, but the moment I saw his chart, I told him that France would not be in good hands if he was elected. (I actually said a lot more, but I'll try to remain at least somewhat tactful in public.)

So I think his chart is an excellent example of someone who would like to be a dictator, who will lie whenever it suits him and may get away with it sometime, but who will eventually be his own downfall.

 

[wayne penner]

Gaer I don't know much about Sarkozy other than he has very good taste in women. Carla Bruni is hot.

However, yes any aspect or sign position that can inflate, will inflate. So all afflictions to Jupiter and Neptune will inflate the ego and cause more promises than deliverance. If you ever see Jupiter afflicted in a chart with some "fluff" (fluff is lots of Pisces or Fire, both are the foundations for the con man) you are dealing with con.

The question is whether it is harmless ego-inflation or something more sinister, whereby the person actively wants to deceive you ... but that is the Saturn situation, not Neptune.

 

[gaer]

The question is whether it is harmless ego-inflation or something more sinister, whereby the person actively wants to deceive you ... but that is the Saturn situation, not Neptune.

I want to get back to this idea:

Bill Clinton's 12th is ruled by Mercury, which conjoins Saturn.

For me this is an excellent example of putting it together. Yes, Saturn is conjunct Mercury. But that conjunction is also sextile Neptune/Mars/AC, IF we can trust the BT given, always a problem.

To me the important thing is that Clinton has remained popular. I won't make any judgements about if this is a good or bad thing. But this is very different from Nixon, who who left office in total disgrace. And if George W. Bush retains any respect after he leaves office, I will be shocked.

I'll leave it to you and others to decide whether Clinton was more dishonest than most presidents—or just more successful at it.

If you compare him with Nixon, there we see Saturn trining Sun/Uranus and sextiling Neptune, which opposes the Sun.

This makes me wonder if we are not also dealing with the ability to SUCCESFULLY "manipulate the truth" without either getting caught or losing reputation—permanently.

 

[Kingsley]

all politicians lie dont they? At least hide their emotions and true thoughts. Is that Lying?

k

 

[4leafclovah]

Gaer I don't know much about Sarkozy other than he has very good taste in women. Carla Bruni is hot.

However, yes any aspect or sign position that can inflate, will inflate. So all afflictions to Jupiter and Neptune will inflate the ego and cause more promises than deliverance. If you ever see Jupiter afflicted in a chart with some "fluff" (fluff is lots of Pisces or Fire, both are the foundations for the con man) you are dealing with con.

The question is whether it is harmless ego-inflation or something more sinister, whereby the person actively wants to deceive you ... but that is the Saturn situation, not Neptune.

What about Jupiter in Scorpio?

 

[4leafclovah]

Men generally have a harder time getting in touch with their emotions than women do, so for a male to have challenging aspects involving water signs I think could be more destructive than if a female were to have those same aspects. Of course a woman could integrate that energy the same way, but I don't see it happening as often as it does with men.