Delineating Natal Chart

[Oddity]

Re: Some Tips on Delineating

4. The Elemental Quality of the Sign of the Ascendant is showing the type of Primary Motivation of the native.
Fire goes for freedom of action and power.
Air goes for freedom of expression and movement.
The Water signs need emotional security
Earth signs need physical security.

The person with masculine Ascendant (or majority of planets in masculine signs) speaks in active terms: "I did this to that person".
The person with feminine sign on Ascendant or majority planets in feminine signs, speaks in passive terms: "This happened to me".

The Feminine signs seek advice because they need second hand in their decisions, in fact they want someone else to make the decision for them.
Masculine signs seek advice because they have many options so they are not sure which option is better.


5. Examine the planets which most closely aspects the Ascendant. These planets add to the whole Primary Motivation thing.

Planets aspecting the Ascendant represent powers the native can use in the world.

The aspecting planet's local determination will be added to the Primary
Motivation.
(Venus in 5th will add love for pleasure and entertainment to the native's Primary Motivation).

The aspect between the aspecting planet and the Ascendant tells you how the being of the planet and its local determination are linked.

6. The Ruler of the Ascendant by its house position tells you where (what area of life) the native will seek to realize his/her Primary Motivation.

Look also at all 5 dignity rulers in the place of the ASC. The Almuten and Exalted ruler are lamost as significant as the domicile ruler (sometimes even more).

The Ruler of the Ascendant (as well as the other rulers) by its nature and zodiacal state shows the methods the native will use and the success or failure of the drive.

A lot of this is taken directly from Robert Zoller's texts, and Robert first studied with Zoltan Mason and learned Morin's delineation methods.

I studied with Robert, too, and he's a wonderful astrologer. But I find a lot of the above to be not always true. I've seen people with all their planets in earth and water signs who are very self-directed and wouldn't dream of asking advice, and people with a predominance of masculine planets and a masculine ascendant who prefer to not take decisions at all.

I've also not found the part about primary motivation and how the native tries to achieve it to be true, though that's a bit muddier, as anything aspecting the ascendant will modify it. But in my experience, the almuten figuris seems to hold more of a key to those things than the ascendant and ascendant ruler.

Which isn't to dismiss the importance of the ascendant and its ruler - they speak of the physical body amongst other things as well as mannerisms, and that's vital stuff.

Has anyone else run across anything like this in terms of theory versus practise? Zoller and Morin are well-worth reading, don't get me wrong there, and I do appreciate a systematic approach to delineation, but this...as I said, a lot of time this particular part of it seems not to work terribly well.

 

[JUPITERASC]

Re: Some Tips on Delineating

A lot of this is taken directly from Robert Zoller's texts, and Robert first studied with Zoltan Mason and learned Morin's delineation methods.

I studied with Robert, too, and he's a wonderful astrologer. But I find a lot of the above to be not always true. I've seen people with all their planets in earth and water signs who are very self-directed and wouldn't dream of asking advice, and people with a predominance of masculine planets and a masculine ascendant who prefer to not take decisions at all.

I've also not found the part about primary motivation and how the native tries to achieve it to be true, though that's a bit muddier, as anything aspecting the ascendant will modify it. But in my experience, the almuten figuris seems to hold more of a key to those things than the ascendant and ascendant ruler.

Which isn't to dismiss the importance of the ascendant and its ruler - they speak of the physical body amongst other things as well as mannerisms, and that's vital stuff.

Has anyone else run across anything like this in terms of theory versus practise? Zoller and Morin are well-worth reading, don't get me wrong there, and I do appreciate a systematic approach to delineation, but this...as I said, a lot of time this particular part of it seems not to work terribly well.

Would be interesting to view example charts of the issues you raise

 

[Oddity]

Which I really can't do without digging into client files, and I have a problem posting those on the Net - especially since a number of them might be guessed at. Ouch.

Let me look, but I cannot promise. I take it you find Morin's rule to hold true?

 

[JUPITERASC]

Which I really can't do without digging into client files,
and I have a problem posting those on the Net
- especially since a number of them might be guessed at. Ouch.

Let me look, but I cannot promise. I take it you find Morin's rule to hold true?

There's also the irony that one requires at the very least
a sample of 250 natal charts
and even then
when one makes the comparison of the seven billion natal charts of those currently living
to draw any firm conclusions from such a 'tiny sample' as 250 charts
when compared with seven billion potential charts is inadvisable
however
always tempting to find a chart that supports one's thesis
and there are often several

 

[Oddity]

I've seen enough charts where it doesn't seem to hold true to make me really wonder if other people find it to be that efficacious, is all. But in the past week or so I've been here, I've realised AW on the whole doesn't seem to be much for discussion of astrological technique, which is something that I'd hoped to find here.

 

[Konrad]

I agree Oddity, I don't see much value in judging one's motivation in the way Zoller teaches. I much prefer the combination of the Lord of the Nativity (which can sometimes be the lord of the ASC) and the Kurios as outlined by Porphyry.

You'll struggle to find much discussion on technique anywhere on the internet. Traditional astrology is unforgiving in that erroneous predictions can't be explained away with the ease they can in modern astrology. I am always happy to discuss and exemplify technique, but it is awkward since I use the Sidereal zodiac and most don't.

 

[JUPITERASC]

It's certainly obvious that the ancients used sidereal measurement
when they detailed the locations of fixed stars
astrologers consulted real skies
location of planets in the night skies would have been sidereal

Vedic astrology remains sidereal as well

 

[Tiarus]

I couldn't find a thread about traditional astrology approach for delineating parents in natal chart, so I apologise for posting a question about it here.

So, we have natural (universal) significators of parents - Sun by day and Saturn by night for father, and Venus by day and Moon by night for mother. Beyond that, we should consider Lot of father and Lot of mother etc.

But, what happens if one of the planets is lord of the ascending sign as if the lord of the ascendant is Sun in day chart? Should I automatically reconsider Saturn as ruler of father because Sun is representing the native?

 

[JUPITERASC]

I couldn't find a thread about traditional astrology approach for delineating parents in natal chart,
so I apologise for posting a question about it here.

So, we have natural (universal) significators of parents - Sun by day and Saturn by night for father, and Venus by day and Moon by night for mother.
Beyond that, we should consider Lot of father and Lot of mother etc.

But, what happens if one of the planets is lord of the ascending sign as if the lord of the ascendant is Sun in day chart?
Should I automatically reconsider Saturn as ruler of father because Sun is representing the native?

Hi Tiarus, if no-one has asked this question already on an existing thread in Traditional astrology
then do create your own thread with your specific question
and then post it on this board separately from this thread
You also need to give the new thread a title that briefly highlights the topic you wish to focus on

 

[Tiarus]

Ok, thanks
I will search threads once more if I missed something

 

[JUPITERASC]

Ok, thanks
I will search threads once more if I missed something

If you are having problems with posting a new thread on this board
then it would be simpler to respond to your question as well if there were a natal chart to view
there are INSTRUCTIONS ON HOW TO ATTACH A CHART TO YOUR POST ON THE FORUM http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12126

 

[theV]

Re: Gianni Agnelli - Death of the Brother

Insightful thread!

 

[JUPITERASC]

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