Electional Chart for probate lawsuit - using Scorp or Aires as ASC best? Mars in 8th good or bad?

[Preciosa]

Hello,

I have been researching electional charts for the past few days and confusing myself at best, with regard to specific rules for timing to file a lawsuit and the order of importance for rules, such as making the ASC and ruler more important, or the moon, or considering my natal chart. I attached two charts if anyone can help decipher a winning outcome for me as the person filing the probate lawsuit (Taurus sun at 25, Libra rising at 2 degrees, with Pluto in first house at 6 degrees, and Leo moon at 4 degrees), against an older male relative (uncle) that has a Scorpio sun at 10 degrees, Virgo moon at 26 degrees, mars at 0 Libra (asc not known). For more background, the uncle is asserting no will exists so he can inherit the deceased's estate, but I am asserting that she left her personal items and real estate to me because a will exists naming me, but the will cannot be found (the uncle may have already found it and destroyed it). Anyway, it needs to go to a judge for obvious reasons.


I waited until both mars and mercury are moving forward, and I feel pressed to file the lawsuit in the next week (before he files first).
Because this is a lawsuit, I am considering only Scorpio and Aires as the ASC - is there another I can use?

Both charts have moon in Aires, but in chart #2, the moon is in the ASC, is this ok? If this is not ok, is moon in taurus later in the week better (bc moon exaulted in taurus and plus venus moves into Pisces and is exaulted)

My choices here for placement of mars, are the 3rd house or the 8th house - is 8th good because this is an inheritance/probate matter, or bad because it's in a challenging house and because 8th house is viewed as support for the 7th house person (my uncle in this lawsuit)? Wouldn't Mars in 8th also show a Kangaroo Court (legal framework not followed?)

The first chart for 1/26/23 at 12:51 am, ASC: Scorpio 4 degrees, Moon: Aires 7 degrees, Mars: 9 Gemini in 8th H - the moon and jupiter in the 6th H do not look good to me, and saturn is in angular house 4th (along with Venus and Sun) - I don't think I want to highlight saturn here

The second chart for 1/26/23 at 9:58 am, ASC: Aires 4 degrees, Moon: Aires 12 degrees - the first house is packed with the jupiter and moon in aires - is this ok? Mars in Gemini is 3rd - is this a better placement than the first chart? Saturn is tucked away in the 11th house so that seems good, and venus sits with it. The Judge House (10th) has pluto - is that going to create problems for me with the Judge? Or will it be helpful because I want to make pluto strong in the 10th? (pluto is in my first house natal chart). I like that Uranus is tucked away in the 2nd house (as opposed to the 7th above) because then I do not have unexpected problems with my adversary by sitting in the 7th.

Any guidance would be sooo appreciated! Thank you!

 

[Cap]

Hello,

I have been researching electional charts for the past few days and confusing myself at best, with regard to specific rules for timing to file a lawsuit and the order of importance for rules, such as making the ASC and ruler more important, or the moon, or considering my natal chart. I attached two charts if anyone can help decipher a winning outcome for me as the person filing the probate lawsuit (Taurus sun at 25, Libra rising at 2 degrees, with Pluto in first house at 6 degrees, and Leo moon at 4 degrees), against an older male relative (uncle) that has a Scorpio sun at 10 degrees, Virgo moon at 26 degrees, mars at 0 Libra (asc not known). For more background, the uncle is asserting no will exists so he can inherit the deceased's estate, but I am asserting that she left her personal items and real estate to me because a will exists naming me, but the will cannot be found (the uncle may have already found it and destroyed it). Anyway, it needs to go to a judge for obvious reasons.


I waited until both mars and mercury are moving forward, and I feel pressed to file the lawsuit in the next week (before he files first).
Because this is a lawsuit, I am considering only Scorpio and Aires as the ASC - is there another I can use?

Both charts have moon in Aires, but in chart #2, the moon is in the ASC, is this ok? If this is not ok, is moon in taurus later in the week better (bc moon exaulted in taurus and plus venus moves into Pisces and is exaulted)

My choices here for placement of mars, are the 3rd house or the 8th house - is 8th good because this is an inheritance/probate matter, or bad because it's in a challenging house and because 8th house is viewed as support for the 7th house person (my uncle in this lawsuit)? Wouldn't Mars in 8th also show a Kangaroo Court (legal framework not followed?)

The first chart for 1/26/23 at 12:51 am, ASC: Scorpio 4 degrees, Moon: Aires 7 degrees, Mars: 9 Gemini in 8th H - the moon and jupiter in the 6th H do not look good to me, and saturn is in angular house 4th (along with Venus and Sun) - I don't think I want to highlight saturn here

The second chart for 1/26/23 at 9:58 am, ASC: Aires 4 degrees, Moon: Aires 12 degrees - the first house is packed with the jupiter and moon in aires - is this ok? Mars in Gemini is 3rd - is this a better placement than the first chart? Saturn is tucked away in the 11th house so that seems good, and venus sits with it. The Judge House (10th) has pluto - is that going to create problems for me with the Judge? Or will it be helpful because I want to make pluto strong in the 10th? (pluto is in my first house natal chart). I like that Uranus is tucked away in the 2nd house (as opposed to the 7th above) because then I do not have unexpected problems with my adversary by sitting in the 7th.

Any guidance would be sooo appreciated! Thank you!

Well, elections are complicated and especially difficult if you have short window of time at your disposal. The best way to think of elections is to consider them "reversed" event astrology, to think in terms "If my election was an event chart, how would I delineate it? As positive for me, or negative for me?"

Both charts have some good things and some not so good things about them. Neither one is really convincing in terms of favorable outcome.
The 2nd chart (the one with Aries ASC) would have been better except Moon in 1st is not good, Aries Moon in general is not great and Moon is VOC. Everything else about 2nd chart is acceptable. In Regiomontanus you even have NN inside 1st and L7 in 12th. But Moon is extremely important and this Moon placement will ruin everything.

I can only offer you some guidelines:

- Jupiter is you main natural significator for this matter. So Moon conj. Jupiter is ideal, Moon 120 Jupiter or Moon 60 Jupiter will do also.
Make sure that aspects are applying rather than separating. Other than that, Moon applying good aspect to L1 is also good (it doesn't matter if it is Mars as long as Mars is L1)

- Nothing wrong with choosing ascendant ruled by Mars in lawsuit matter as it is a kind of contest, although choosing ascendant ruled by Jupiter would be more suitable. Especially if you could pull off a chart where it's Jupiter vs Mercury (as L7) and Mercury is combust. Unfortunately, that is possible only in approx. month and a half from now. Ascendant ruled by Saturn is also possible alternative but I would go only for Saturn vs Sun (AQU ascendant, which would place Saturn in domicile in 1st).

- in general, you should avoid placing Moon or Sun in the ascendant.

- Everything that applies when delineating lawsuit event or horary chart, applies here also. Your goal is to make L1 and 1st house as strong as possible and L7 and 7th house as weak as possible. In that regard, I've noticed that one of your charts has NN in 7th (and SN in 1st). This is not good. Ideally, it should be reversed but at least avoid putting SN in ascendant. NN greatly strengthens the house it is in, and SN greatly weakens the house it is in. Placing L7 in detriment or fall, in combustion or retrogradation greatly helps. Especially combustion is very damaging.

-10th is the judge, 4th is the outcome or the verdict. I would probably try to have applying aspect between L1 and L4, however this is not crucial as long as there is no applying aspect between L7 and L4 either.

- L1 in 8th is not good. Ideally, L1 should be in 10th or 1st. In general, you should avoid L1 and Moon placements in 6th, 8th and 12th. But great if you can put L7 in one of these.

- Also to consider, 2nd and 8th represent lawyers for each side. Although not essential, it surely helps if you make sure your lawyers are better and more competent.

- Good sign of overall victory is if L7 is disposed by L1 (L7 in a sign ruled by L1)

- POF is important. I can see that you paid attention to POF, which is good.

- Sign modality of ascendant is also a thing to consider. It determines the duration of the whole thing.

- In a lawsuit between only 2 people, natal ascendant rulers matter. However, if you don't know your opponent's natal ruler of ascendant, you can't use this. Still, you can start when your natal L1 is strong. For example, now would be a good period for people who have Saturn as their natal L1 to launch lawsuit because Saturn is strong in Aquarius. In your particular case, since Venus is your natal L1, waiting until Venus is exalted in Pisces is favorable. But it will also strengthen L7 if you aim for Mars vs. Venus chart.

- If you come from modern astrology, obviously you pay attention to outer planets. I suggest that you forget about them in horary, event and election charts. Unless outer planet is in 1 degree conjunction with relevant significator or house cusp, they bear no significance in the chart.

- Rarely you can pull off a perfect chart. Real life is complicated, so election and event charts are also complicated. It is a good practice to forget about perfection and go for "good enough" in electional astrology.

 

[IleneK]

Thank you VERY much for this tutorial, Cap. Much appreciated!

 

[Cap]

I forgot to add in the end, although my post contained a lot of criticism, I am aware how DIFFICULT it is to come up with a good chart in elections.

If I were to choose between these 2 charts as my only options I would probably go with the 1st one (SCO ascendant), cross my fingers and hope for the best, although I am not convinced it is winning (but I could be wrong). It has some good features like Moon applying to L1, Moon conj. Jupiter (but separating) and POF 60 ASC (although it would be much better if L1 is applying to POF like in 2nd chart).
But it also has plenty of not so good features. Even L7 conj. Saturn is not reassuring because in the context of the chart, Saturn represents the verdict and L7 is disposed by Saturn (Saturn will accept anything coming from his place of domicile). The good thing is that Venus is separating from the verdict, not applying to it.

In the 2nd chart, Moon in 1st and VOC is a deal breaker.

 

[Preciosa]

I forgot to add in the end, although my post contained a lot of criticism, I am aware how DIFFICULT it is to come up with a good chart in elections.

If I were to choose between these 2 charts as my only options I would probably go with the 1st one (SCO ascendant), cross my fingers and hope for the best, although I am not convinced it is winning (but I could be wrong). It has some good features like Moon applying to L1, Moon conj. Jupiter (but separating) and POF 60 ASC (although it would be much better if L1 is applying to POF like in 2nd chart).
But it also has plenty of not so good features. Even L7 conj. Saturn is not reassuring because in the context of the chart, Saturn represents the verdict and L7 is disposed by Saturn (Saturn will accept anything coming from his place of domicile). The good thing is that Venus is separating from the verdict, not applying to it.

In the 2nd chart, Moon in 1st and VOC is a deal breaker.

Hi Cap, thank you so much for your super helpful post - I learned a lot here. I read one source online that said moon was ok in first, but all the other sources said it was not, so thank you for clarifying.

I tried three more charts to better understand what you were pointing out. I see what you mean about the mercury combust possibility in March with a Jupiter chart, so I tried it with both Sag and Pis. The Sag rising chart has so many moon trines aspecting (I think I counted 4) - the main one for my purposes is Jupiter, as you stated. I noticed that with this chart the merc combust occurs in the 4th house, whereas in the PIS chart, it occurs in the first - how much does this matter? I'm assuming it would be better not to have it in the 1st house. The PIS chart also has applying moon trine Jupiter. If I weight these out, moon in 9th is better than moon in 6th. Should I consider anything else when comparing these two charts?

Assuming that I don't have the luxury to wait until March, I created an AQU chart, I noticed that on 1/25/23 there are moon aspects to venus, mars, and JUPITER (moon conj jup applying), but then on 1/26 I see a conjunction with the pars fortuna (applying) - I read somewhere that this is very auspicious and can strengthen the moon, can you confirm how much this matters? So, does this ACQ chart seem any more convincing than the Scorp ASC chart above?

If not, I can re-think my strategy by letting the other person file the suit first, and then I can come in and object. I'm just a little nervous about that way because I have less control with regard to the timing and what that chart would look like.

(I'm looking for a way to attach these charts....I do not see the attachment option in this reply).

 

[Preciosa]

New charts...

 

[Preciosa]

I wanted to post the Jan 25th ACQ ASC chart as well because it looks a little better...the moon is in the 2nd rather than the 3rd house and shows jupiter applying rather than sep from the moon conj. Is it a problem that the moon at at 27 degrees? I try to stay under 27 because of 27 signifying the end of the matter, or being too late.

 

[Cap]

Hi Cap, thank you so much for your super helpful post - I learned a lot here. I read one source online that said moon was ok in first, but all the other sources said it was not, so thank you for clarifying.

I tried three more charts to better understand what you were pointing out. I see what you mean about the mercury combust possibility in March with a Jupiter chart, so I tried it with both Sag and Pis. The Sag rising chart has so many moon trines aspecting (I think I counted 4) - the main one for my purposes is Jupiter, as you stated. I noticed that with this chart the merc combust occurs in the 4th house, whereas in the PIS chart, it occurs in the first - how much does this matter? I'm assuming it would be better not to have it in the 1st house. The PIS chart also has applying moon trine Jupiter. If I weight these out, moon in 9th is better than moon in 6th. Should I consider anything else when comparing these two charts?

Assuming that I don't have the luxury to wait until March, I created an AQU chart, I noticed that on 1/25/23 there are moon aspects to venus, mars, and JUPITER (moon conj jup applying), but then on 1/26 I see a conjunction with the pars fortuna (applying) - I read somewhere that this is very auspicious and can strengthen the moon, can you confirm how much this matters? So, does this ACQ chart seem any more convincing than the Scorp ASC chart above?

If not, I can re-think my strategy by letting the other person file the suit first, and then I can come in and object. I'm just a little nervous about that way because I have less control with regard to the timing and what that chart would look like.

(I'm looking for a way to attach these charts....I do not see the attachment option in this reply).

I don't have much time today, so just a quick reply.
Out of 4 charts I would dismiss the one with Pisces ASC right away on the first glance (Sun in 1st, although depending on a house system it can be interpreted as Sun in 12th.).
The difference with AQU charts which also have Sun in 1st (in whole signs) is that Sun is major significator (L7) so in the context of the chart it means your opponent is being dominated (Sun is in poor shape, detriment, disposed by L1 in 1st). In sports charts, which are also contest charts, L7 just outside ASC, up to 2 degrees, means L7 is dominating L1. But L7 being just inside ASC means L7 is being dominated by L1. Although, I have no direct experience with lawsuit chart like this.
In contest charts (war, sports, lawsuits) you always want to be represented by superior planet, if possible. So, Saturn, Jupiter and Mars always have natural advantage over Venus, Mercury, Sun and Moon, all things being equal. All charts are good in that respect.
Good thing in most charts is L7 being disposed by L1. This is good sign for victory. You have it both with Mercury in Pisces (with Jupiter L1) and with Sun in AQU (Saturn L1). In both cases L7 is in poor shape.
Mercury is not actually combust, just under Sun beams, which is debilitating but not so much as in case of combustion.
Yes, Moon applying to POF is very fortunate but in that chart Moon is applying 90 to Mercury in 12th first. That is not good. Moon applying to POF doesn't count as aspect, say it doesn't prevent Moon from being VOC for example. Moon's first aspect to planet is what counts. Moon applying to POF is just very useful and fortunate secondary thing, the closer the better. Still you must consider Moon's first aspect with planet as of primary importance.
In the chart with Moon on 27th degree, Moon has no aspects until she leaves the sign. That's not good, Moon is VOC, aspect in the next sign doesn't prevent it from being VOC.
All in all, plenty of positive things this time, you just have to fix the Moon, if possible, in most charts.

Success in this matter still depends on your natal promise. Even the best election cannot overwrite your natal promise.
So condition of your natal 8th and Venus in your chart is important (I assume your 8th house is Taurus)
There is also another possibility, to use Taurus ascendant (your natal 8th) and exploit next Venus in Pisces period for exalted L1. Exalted Venus, being your natal ASC and 8th ruler, would make excellent L1, and that would put her in fortunate 11th in as opposed to undignified Mars. Just a thought...

 

[Preciosa]

Just a follow up to this previous discussion. A new probate petition has been filed by uncle (I am the objector) and I created a new chart for the filing date and time. I'm attempting to analyze my chances of success if I am L7, against L1 uncle. We have a Mercury vs Jupiter chart in play for a "contest."

Jupiter is stronger than Mercury generally, so my chances don't look too bad off the bat, plus Jupiter is the natural significator of the chart/action (lawsuit). Here is my attempt at analysis, please tell me what you think as to my chance of success as L7.

L1: Asc 4 degrees Gemini conjunct Mars. Ruler of L1 in 10th (good for L1 in an angular H), but combust with Sun? (within 11 degrees). Traditional combust is noted as within 8.5 degrees, however, I think I read somewhere that if Mercury is involved it can be combust up to 13-14 degrees, is this correct? Also, 4 degrees Gemini is a critical aspect - doesn't this strengthen the ruler of L1 - gives mental stability, or is it a contradiction of fortunes?

L3: Moon at 0 degrees Leo in 3rd H. Ruler of 3rd H is in 10th. 0 is another critical degree, does this merely signify confusion (also read that it is the degree of homicide?)? I note that my natal moon is 4 degrees Leo - how does this play out?

First applying aspect from the moon (all others are separating) - Moon inconjunct Mercury. Does this signify how it ends, or what happens next? (what about 4th H signifying end?). Can this mean L1 is subject to persistent inner discomfort/discord that it forces the person to act compulsively? Perhaps even signal weakness, fatigue, and exhaustion? Or what about self-sacrifice or an indication that compromise is required? Could this be further supported by Mars in L1 signifying risk of death/serious wounding?

L7: Empty H, but Ruler of 7th in 11th H and within one degree of Venus. I note that Ruler of the 7th is at 12 degrees Jupiter, and Venus is at 13 degrees, while my Natal Jupiter is also 13 degrees Jupiter - this looks really good to have two benefics in my corner, and tied to my natal Jupiter. Venus 13 degrees Aries is a critical degree, I think it gives L7 strength as a fighter, although poor Venus is not a fighter.

L10: Judge House - back to L1 ruler here with Sun within 11 degrees, how can this play out with regard to the Judge?

L12: Uranus and NN here, looks like a bad house for L1 Uncle, and with Uranus there it might mean unexpected and unwanted obstacles for him. Can this signify me showing up as my Uncle's unexpected/unwanted problem given that my sun is in the later degrees of Taurus (my sun is conjunct Algol). I also noted Uranus in this chart is at an "Avatar Degree" at 15 degrees Taurus, doesn't this designate good fortune, for me?

Other misc with my natal chart. Interesting to note that the L1 Asc falls in my natal 9th house with my natal Merc at 17 degrees, and I checked my upcoming solar return, yup, solar rtn asc is in 9th H gemini at 15 degrees! My current year solar return has asc 28 degrees exact with pluto in 4th H Capricorn! So that L1 Mars at 20 degrees is right on top of my natal 17 merc and solar rtn asc 15 degrees - arguments with uncle! I also have my Sun exact conjunct Algol - doesn't this give me victory in war? Although placed in the 12th H of this chart seems to diminish it?

Not sure about uncle's Asc, but he has natal sun at 10 scorpio, natal moon at 26 virgo, and natal Mars at critical degree - 0 Libra - yup, manipulator. Natal Jupiter 25 Gemini.

This is as far as I can get in my analysis, does anyone see anything else?

Thank you!