Hellenistic/Medieval/Traditional only: Is Saturn more evil/problematic than Mars in this Daychart?

[geminimercury]

This thread I direct my question to Hellenistic/Medieval/Traditional only. Sorry, I am not looking for the "modern" interpretations, I state clearly in this post, I am looking for Hellenistic/Medieval/TRADITIONAL astrology interpretation.

Thank you in advanced for your help.

A year ago in AdvancedAstrology sub an Hellenistic astrologer help answer my question, and I will quote his reading below, and he can't seem to figure it out neither (if Mars or Saturn is more problematic), so I will ask this here in AW as I want to know the answer, as I also have problem figure it out too.

Quotes from the Hellenistic astrologer:

[[ The 1st House, Domicile ruler of the ASC is in Averse and Peregrine his 12th House ----- True, Gemini Moon in 12th is AVERSION/Disconnect from the Helm Ascendant 1st.
Gemini is 12th sign from Cancer 1st. No Ptolemy aspect, cannot see, cannot witness.

Venus and she´s also Averse and Peregrine. ----- True, Aquarius Venus in 8th is also AVERSION/Disconnect from the Ascendant. There no Ptolemy aspect between the sign Aquarius and Cancer. The Helm Ascendant 1st cannot witness nor can see Aquarius 8th.

This means the only remaining ruler of the 1H is Mars in Scorpio with Scorpio Saturn (not count the Scorpio Pluto in Traditional). ----- True, the ONLY Triplicity Lord that his Cancer Ascendant can see is Scorpio Mars in 5th make a Direct Trine to his Ascendant 1st.

Mars has an undisputable rulership over the Ascendant via Triplicity.
Water Trigon Triplicites Lords of his Ascendant are: Venus Mars Moon
BOTH Moon and Venus are Aversion/Disconnect from the Ascendant. That mean there ONLY Triplicity Lord that his Ascendant can see and that is the Out of Sect Malefic Mars. ]]

Then the Astrologer said: [[ His Moon rules the 1H while being in Aversion.
On the other hand, the 12th Parts or Dodekatemoria are very ancient, almost as ancient as the Zodiac itself, and are attested in many different sources.

His Moon is in a 2.5° section of Gemini that corresponds to Scorpio. The first 2.5° belongs to Gemini, the second to Cancer, the third to Leo, etc.

Dodekatemoria, it´s not a separate chart meant to replace the natal chart, but secondary placements for each point, projected somewhere is the chart. I do find it very potent in practice and it could be one way that Mars is CONNECTED to the Ascendant.

Then he said: [[ Even discarding that, the fact remains that Mars is the only Ruler of Cancer placed in a Sign that can see the 1st House.
Having the Contrary-to-Sect Malefic CONNECTED to the Helm--Asc.
The fact that Mars is hosting and co-present with the other malefic is an aggravating factor.
The fact that it´s overcoming the Bound ruler of the ASC is also afflictive.

Is Saturn placed in a poor position? Yes. Does that make it worse than Mars? Not really. And since they´re so combined, trying to figure out which one is worse may not be very useful. Having said that, Mars is Connected to the Asc in ways and that make him more relevant. ]]

My other question, as you know see Natal. Scorpio Mars (the Out of Sect Malefic) is the Sole and Final dispositor in the Dispositor tree disposed all of the planets in the chart.
BUT my concern is the Dodecatemoria chart below,
as you see Natal Scorpio Saturn is conjunct on the Dodecaemoria Moon and Mercury. And Natal Cancer Asc is in Dode 24 deg Scorpio, the EXACT deg of the Natal 24 deg Scorpio Mars, so Natal Mars is exactly on Dodecatemoria Ascendant.
Should I be concern that Mars is more evil and harmful for the native?

 

[geminimercury]

@DC80
I know you study Medieval and Hellenistic Traditional astrology Sir, can I have your eyes insight on this Sir? It is something that I been looking for an answer for a long time and I just can't seem to figure it out. And the Hellenistic astrologer that help me above (which I quotes his reading) he also couldn't come to a conclusion neither.

 

[waybread]

Generally I look at the major dignities before moving onto the minor ones-- if they're even necessary. But a lot depends upon what you want this chart to show you. It's one thing if you want just a general temperamental (character) analysis, but another if you're looking for something more specific. You mentioned the ascendant a few times, so I wonder if your concern is specifically something related to the first house.

Mars is the stronger of the two planets: domiciled, and in its own triplicity. The 5th is generally one of the "good houses," which applies to both planets.

Saturn is retrograde and has no essential dignity.

A malefic in its own sign is believed to operate more beneficially.

Saturn looks like the trouble-maker.

 

[JUPITERASC]

This thread I direct my question to Hellenistic/Medieval/Traditional only. Sorry, I am not looking for the "modern" interpretations, I state clearly in this post, I am looking for Hellenistic/Medieval/TRADITIONAL astrology interpretation.

Thank you in advanced for your help.

A year ago in AdvancedAstrology sub an Hellenistic astrologer help answer my question, and I will quote his reading below, and he can't seem to figure it out neither (if Mars or Saturn is more problematic), so I will ask this here in AW as I want to know the answer, as I also have problem figure it out too.

Quotes from the Hellenistic astrologer:

[[ The 1st House, Domicile ruler of the ASC is in Averse and Peregrine his 12th House ----- True, Gemini Moon in 12th is AVERSION/Disconnect from the Helm Ascendant 1st.
Gemini is 12th sign from Cancer 1st. No Ptolemy aspect, cannot see, cannot witness.

Venus and she´s also Averse and Peregrine. ----- True, Aquarius Venus in 8th is also AVERSION/Disconnect from the Ascendant. There no Ptolemy aspect between the sign Aquarius and Cancer. The Helm Ascendant 1st cannot witness nor can see Aquarius 8th.

This means the only remaining ruler of the 1H is Mars in Scorpio with Scorpio Saturn (not count the Scorpio Pluto in Traditional). ----- True, the ONLY Triplicity Lord that his Cancer Ascendant can see is Scorpio Mars in 5th make a Direct Trine to his Ascendant 1st.

Mars has an undisputable rulership over the Ascendant via Triplicity.
Water Trigon Triplicites Lords of his Ascendant are: Venus Mars Moon
BOTH Moon and Venus are Aversion/Disconnect from the Ascendant. That mean there ONLY Triplicity Lord that his Ascendant can see and that is the Out of Sect Malefic Mars. ]]

Then the Astrologer said: [[ His Moon rules the 1H while being in Aversion.
On the other hand, the 12th Parts or Dodekatemoria are very ancient, almost as ancient as the Zodiac itself, and are attested in many different sources.

His Moon is in a 2.5° section of Gemini that corresponds to Scorpio. The first 2.5° belongs to Gemini, the second to Cancer, the third to Leo, etc.

Dodekatemoria, it´s not a separate chart meant to replace the natal chart, but secondary placements for each point, projected somewhere is the chart. I do find it very potent in practice and it could be one way that Mars is CONNECTED to the Ascendant.

Then he said: [[ Even discarding that, the fact remains that Mars is the only Ruler of Cancer placed in a Sign that can see the 1st House.
Having the Contrary-to-Sect Malefic CONNECTED to the Helm--Asc.
The fact that Mars is hosting and co-present with the other malefic is an aggravating factor.
The fact that it´s overcoming the Bound ruler of the ASC is also afflictive.

Is Saturn placed in a poor position? Yes. Does that make it worse than Mars? Not really. And since they´re so combined, trying to figure out which one is worse may not be very useful. Having said that, Mars is Connected to the Asc in ways and that make him more relevant. ]]

after stating clearly

This thread I direct my question to Hellenistic/Medieval/Traditional only.

and then immediately clearly clarifying

Sorry, I am not looking for the "modern" interpretations, I state clearly in this post, I am looking for Hellenistic/Medieval/TRADITIONAL astrology interpretation.

BUT THEN
NOW SUDDENLY
YOU HAVE POSTED MODERNIST "DISPOSITOR TREE.."
THAT INCLUDES THE OUTERS

My other question, as you know see Natal. Scorpio Mars (the Out of Sect Malefic) is the Sole and Final dispositor in the Dispositor tree disposed all of the planets in the chart

https://www.astrologyweekly.com/for...ase-read-before-posting-on-this-board.120411/
Your post is not traditional if it includes any of the following:
THE MODERNIST OUTER PLANETS are not used in traditional astrology

If your post treats any of THE OUTERS as astrological planets,
it belongs in either Modern Astrology or any of the other boards.

If you want to post to ask why traditional astrologers don't use those planets,
do so anywhere but this board or Modern Astrology,
or search the other boards for an existing discussion on that
It is not respectful to come into someone's house & demand why they don't do things your way.

BUT my concern is the Dodecatemoria chart below,
as you see Natal Scorpio Saturn is conjunct on the Dodecaemoria Moon and Mercury. And Natal Cancer Asc is in Dode 24 deg Scorpio, the EXACT deg of the Natal 24 deg Scorpio Mars, so Natal Mars is exactly on Dodecatemoria Ascendant.
Should I be concern that Mars is more evil and harmful for the native?

 

[Humanitarian]

I have some comments on your Mars and Saturn, and:
Your Mars is domicile in a succedent house, out of sect, but in triplicity because the Mars is in a water, feminine sign, and Mars has a square, and two trines, and the square is less powerful compared to two trines, but malefics functions in hard aspects, so it's better dignified, but a little bit worse than your Saturn, because your dodekatemoria chart's ASC conjuncts your Mars, which is harmful to you.
Your Saturn is peregrine, also in a succedent house, and it is in sect, but not in hayz (hayz is stronger than sect), so it's kind of okay, not good, not bad, and rather worse than Mars a bit, because natal Saturn conjuncts dodekatemoria Mercury and Moon, which is both a little less important than the ASC.
Edit: In sect is actually a condition for a planet to be in hayz
Edit 2: Saturn is Rx, which reduces the dignity of Saturn.

 

[JUPITERASC]

.

Domiciled SCORPIO MARS is not of the sect in favor
& is in Saturns term
& in 5th assembled with Saturn
& obstructs the natives agenda

You mentioned the ascendant a few times, so I wonder if your concern is specifically something related to the first house.

DIURNAL aka day chart
so ascendant ruler Gemini moon is not of the sect in favor, is in aversion to mars and peregrine
Gemini ruler mercury is combust

 

[geminimercury]

Lol JupiterASC, look at your Table of Dignities and Debilities again, it has the sign Scorpio domicile in Pluto, and Aquarius domicile in Uranus. Maybe you should be the one that need to learn to follow your rule of what you PREACHING about, no outer generational planets.
Sorry, Scorpio sign is rule by the personal inner MARS, and Aquarius is rule by the personal planet SATURN.

And I follow this Hellenistic astrology Egyptian Term/bound table, I'm strictly Hellenistic astrology.

@DC80 Sorry, I was hoping to get Sir DC80 view on this thread question of mine.

 

[JUPITERASC]

Lol JupiterASC, look at your Table of Dignities and Debilities again,

thanks for highlighting that
- now features seven classical planets - no modern outers

Sorry, Scorpio sign is rule by the personal inner MARS, and Aquarius is rule by the personal planet SATURN.

no need for apologies

And I follow this Hellenistic astrology Egyptian Term/bound table, I'm strictly Hellenistic astrology.

"..dispositor tree.." is not Hellenistic

@DC80 Sorry, I was hoping to get Sir DC80 view on this thread question of mine.

I was hoping to get Sir DC80 view on this thread question of mine.

.

 

[waybread]

One thing to keep in mind about Hellenistic astrologers is that they didn't all agree on the same meanings and methods.

Ptolemy's vs. the Egyptian terms being merely one case in point.

A lot of what they knew and practiced has been lost, as is clear from surviving texts that mention predecessors and contemporaries.

In fact, a lot of ancient astrology was not practiced by the textbook authors, but by ordinary Romans and by fortune-tellers at street fairs. Who knows what they practiced?! (For very different scholarship, see Frederick Cramer, Astrology in Roman Law and Practice.)

Another thing to keep in mind is that surviving Hellenistic texts didn't come down to us in the original ancient Greek or Latin, but were translated-- usually from the Arabic into medieval Latin. The Arab and medieval Christian editors added their own glosses or made executive decisions about how to translate problematic texts. Then these texts got translated into modern English -- either by classics scholars who were not astrologers, or by astrologers who studied ancient and medieval languages but were not experts in them.

See Deborah Houlding's article on the career of Ptolemy's terms. https://www.skyscript.co.uk/terms.html

Then does anyone know what was their actual origin and reason for their uneven degree lengths?

The revival of traditional astrology in the early 1990s and more recent revival of Hellenistic astrology are produced by our own contemporaries, with their own subjectivities.

In sum, geminimercury, if you're working with a problematic chart, see how it works out in real life. Mars and Saturn were and are very different planets, regardless of any minor dignities and debilities.

 

[Outlook]

saturn mars have completely different roles. chalk and cheese. and environments they operate within also affect their expression. you cannot take a chart out of context of its environment and judge. this is a bit extreme but…. a table has a chart also. so does a little squirrel. we can go on.….

a jail would support saturn and become far more malefic and limit mars irrespective of all strength. environment counts.

i suspect that vedic is the best, most comprehensive ancient astrology. could be whatever is in Iran also if anything survives there…..

Dorotheus was one of the last astrologer or historians who used ballads to pass to younger generations. someone helped him write them but whether they are accurately written is anyones guess.

 

[JUPITERASC]

saturn mars have completely different roles. chalk and cheese. and environments they operate within also affect their expression. you cannot take a chart out of context of its environment and judge. this is a bit extreme but…. a table has a chart also. so does a little squirrel. we can go on.….
a jail would support saturn and become far more malefic and limit mars irrespective of all strength. environment counts.

not necessarily
prisons are frequently run by organised criminal gangs

i suspect that vedic is the best, most comprehensive ancient astrology. could be whatever is in Iran also if anything survives there…..

- Vedic astrology. Posts about Vedic astrology belong on the Vedic astrology board.
If you want to post about any of those things, take it to another part of the forum.

https://www.astrologyweekly.com/for...ase-read-before-posting-on-this-board.120411/

Dorotheus was one of the last astrologer or historians who used ballads to pass to younger generations.
someone helped him write them but whether they are accurately written is anyones guess.

 

[DC80]

I don't know if it was you, but I think I told you wrong on something. They do use Mars' night house Scorpio but instead of taking the dexter/right sextile to Virgo they take the sinister/left sextile to Capricorn. There's something else going on there. I thought it might be solstice/equinox points but Valens says Sun is exalted in his exaltation at Capricorn 19° and in the depression of his depression at Cancer 19°. Cancer is the Summer solstice and Sun is at its northing point or highest point before falling to its southing point which ain't making much sense. It's based on some kind of cycle but I can't figure out which one because my brain ain't big enough.

Quotes from the Hellenistic astrologer:

I'm not sure I understand his gobbledy-****.

[[ The 1st House, Domicile ruler of the ASC is in Averse and Peregrine his 12th House ----- True, Gemini Moon in 12th is AVERSION/Disconnect from the Helm Ascendant 1st.
Gemini is 12th sign from Cancer 1st. No Ptolemy aspect, cannot see, cannot witness.

Venus and she´s also Averse and Peregrine. ----- True, Aquarius Venus in 8th is also AVERSION/Disconnect from the Ascendant. There no Ptolemy aspect between the sign Aquarius and Cancer. The Helm Ascendant 1st cannot witness nor can see Aquarius 8th.

Moon and Venus are also out of sect so it's a good thing they're in aversion otherwise they could cause harm to the native. Moon is waxing and that's a good thing. Don't ignore Moon dispositor Mercury trine Asc which connects Moon to Asc. But a 12th place Moon is a problem day or night.

This means the only remaining ruler of the 1H is Mars in Scorpio with Scorpio Saturn (not count the Scorpio Pluto in Traditional). ----- True, the ONLY Triplicity Lord that his Cancer Ascendant can see is Scorpio Mars in 5th make a Direct Trine to his Ascendant 1st.

Mars has an undisputable rulership over the Ascendant via Triplicity.
Water Trigon Triplicites Lords of his Ascendant are: Venus Mars Moon
BOTH Moon and Venus are Aversion/Disconnect from the Ascendant. That mean there ONLY Triplicity Lord that his Ascendant can see and that is the Out of Sect Malefic Mars. ]]

I don't know how he drew that conclusion.

Sect is the key to everything.
Diurnal sect: a luminary (Sun), a benefic (Jupiter), a malefic (Saturn)
Nocturnal sect: a luminary (Moon), a benefic (Venus), a malefic (Mars)

Where's Mercury fit in? I'm reluctant to use the term wildcard because people misconstrue it. Mercury is the variable. The chameleon that changes things. That's what he does. Mercury follows the sect ruler. In a diurnal chart you want Mercury in above horizon in the day sky and in a nocturnal chart you want Mercury above horizon in the night sky and since Mercury's never more than 28° away from Sun that's only possible if Sun is in the 1st place and Mercury is rising ahead of Sun or Sun is in the 7th place and Mercury is above horizon trailing Sun.

Think of sect as being some place you want to be versus some place you don't want to be.

I'm in Iraq. Do I want to be there? Hell no and I'm madder than hell. Do I get to be in Baghdad where life is easier? No, I'm in Basrah where every minute sucks so you embrace the suck and drive on.

I'm at Youngstown State. I'm happy. I'm taking a class I don't really like so I'm annoyed but I'll survive. I'm taking a class I really want to take so I'm way happier.

I'm at the BMV. I don't really want to be there but I have to get my driver's license renewed. The BMV people aggravate me. The people in the BMV annoy me and somebody's comfort dog masquerading as a service dog and we know that because it's running around like an idiot and not comforting to me really irritates me but I'm not ready to start shooting the place up.

The stars are just like that.

In this chart, Moon, Venus, Jupiter and Saturn are out of sect and Sun and Mars are in sect. Without slogging through all the philosophical texts, Sun can't be completely out of sect ever, because that would mean you don't exist.

Malefics can be benefic and benefics can be malefic and we know that because Valens says so, the Firmi guy says so, the Dori guy says so, they all say so and the way we know the difference is sect. Diurnal 12th place Saturn is good, but nocturnal 12th place Saturn is bad. Diurnal 12th place Mars is bad but nocturnal 12th place Mars is good because he alleviates all the bad and if he's in a feminine sign he's that much better and if he's in his trigon or his own sign (that would have to be Scorpio in a nocturnal chart) he's even better.

The Mars in this chart at first glance is benefic because he's below the horizon in a diurnal chart, in a feminine sign, in the trigon he rules, and in his own proper sign in the night sky. My software considers place as part of sect but the Greeks didn't. Yes, he would be the proper Asc ruler for this chart since Moon is in aversion.

However, the good Mars could do is stymied by Saturn who is a diurnal planet in the night sky where you don't want him, and in a feminine sign, and a water sign and Scorpio. Saturn is malefic here not Mars.

To show you how sect plays out, Mars in the 5th place in Scorpio in the night sky is good fortune. If Sun were below horizon, then Mars would be in the day-time sky and being in the 5th place is disaster and danger and should Moon be in the 11th place opposing Mars it would be even worse.

Mars is with Saturn. We treat that the way we'd treat any star. Mars is hot. Saturn is cold. Mix hot and cold and you get warm. Mars indicates aggressive tendencies Saturn softens that aggression. That's a person who is in control and being in control is not the same thing as being controlling. Mars is impatience and rash actions leaping before you look kind of thing but Saturn blunts that. What we have here is a sober well-balanced human being and since Mars rules the Asc that's exactly what you'd want.

The down side to that is Mars is drive/ambition. That's why usually you want Jupiter with Mars. Usually. When they're together one is always out of sect and you don't want that in an air sign. Mars is always running and Saturn is walking and here he's walking backwards. This person is not likely to attain what they set out to achieve. When Saturn is in the night sky and whether the chart is diurnal or nocturnal makes no difference, you want Saturn in his night house Capricorn. If he can't be there he needs to be in fire or air. If Saturn is in water or any earth other than Capricorn he's slower and more sluggish and dumbs down things to a crawl. The night is cold. Water and earth are cold. You want fire/air to warm Saturn up.

With 12th place Gemini Moon being in aversion to Mars/Saturn and Asc they're probably apathetic having a sort of whatever happens happens attitude. That isn't the same thing as never finishing what they start because that requires both Moon and Mercury and we don't have that. We do have 9th place Pisces Mercury in trine so they're probably intelligent and no, being in Pisces doesn't harm Mercury but being in opposition to the 3rd place he would obstruct/frustrate matters there.

The two bad things in this chart are the Mars/Saturn square with the out of sect Venus. Fortunately, Venus holds the superior position, and the Moon/Venus trine.

I figure that's what you really want to know and I didn't have to jump through mental acrobatics to figure it out.

 

[geminimercury]

@DC80

Thank you Sir DC80 for your interpretations. Really appreciated Sir.

Mars has an undisputable rulership over the Ascendant via Triplicity.
What this astrologer means was Triplicity of Pisces Sun (his Sect) light, and Cancer Asc, so we go Water Trigon, which is Venus Mars Moon.

Air sign Gemini Moon in 12th is Aversion/Disconnect from Cancer Asc.
Air sign Aquarius Venus in 8th Aversion/Disconnect from Cancer Asc.
Water sign Scorpio Mars in 5th is Domicile and TRINE the Cancer Asc.
So Mars is the ONLY Triplicty Lord the Cancer Asc can see.

And also I was told by the astrologer, Mars hold the Superior Square because the sign Scorpio 5th house RISES BEFORE the sign Aquarius 8th house, Mars hold the right of the Square. Also you see Venus is in Mars Bound/term (I use Eyptian bound since I follow Hellenistic).
Venus is Perigrine and has no dignity in Air sign. This Venus is very abuse in this chart. Being in Mars Bound/term, and being Square by BOTH Mars and Saturn.

This is the chart with aspect by Astrodients.

 

[DC80]

Then the Astrologer said: [[ His Moon rules the 1H while being in Aversion.
On the other hand, the 12th Parts or Dodekatemoria are very ancient, almost as ancient as the Zodiac itself, and are attested in many different sources.

His Moon is in a 2.5° section of Gemini that corresponds to Scorpio. The first 2.5° belongs to Gemini, the second to Cancer, the third to Leo, etc.

He isn't using those properly.

They would cast a whole sign chart and read it. If Asc is in a late degree they'd recast the chart in equal sign to refine their initial reading. Then they would use the dodekatemoria and antiscia to refine that.

On another thread, somebody's profected Asc is moving to the 8th place and Saturn who is a time ruler so his transits actually mean something is transiting a neutral place, the 9th place I think and there's going to be an event involving the 7th place which is other people and you use the antiscia to figure out which other people like your parents, children, siblings, Aunt Bessie, your friends, co-workers, bosses, total strangers, your priest, or the government which could be the police or the tax collector or something else.

Dodekatemoria, it´s not a separate chart meant to replace the natal chart, but secondary placements for each point, projected somewhere is the chart. I do find it very potent in practice and it could be one way that Mars is CONNECTED to the Ascendant.

We already established that Mars rules the Asc by being in trine as water trigon ruler so there's no need to "connect" them and nowhere in any text does it say a star rules because it's dodekatemoria is there.

If the dodekatemoria of Moon is in the terms of the malefics acting malefic or in the terms of another star but malefics are attacking that point, that portends bad, namely, lots of reversals and ups and downs in the native's life. If it is in the terms of the benefics that is good and if Venus/Jupiter are benefic and attacking that point that is even better for the native.

To apply that to this chart, the dodekatemoria of Fortune at Libra 5° is at Sagittarius 11°. South node is there so that's strike one. Jupiter is in aversion so that's strike two. It's in the term of Saturn (by my reckoning since I use Valen's terms but I think it's Saturn if you use Egyptian) who's in aversion so that's strike three and Moon opposes so that's strike four. This guy is not going to win the lottery, the prize patrol isn't going to show up at his door and there's no point in gambling.

For dodekatemoria think focus. That's what the Firmi guy means when he's talking about the power, the influence, the secrets.

The dodekatemoria of Asc shows you a person's focus for their life. They're drawn to it like a magnet and Hessie from Thebes says Scorpio 25° is being away from your homeland or craft or rank. We find Mercury/Sun in the 9th place pointing to foreign travel/living reinforced by 7th place Jupiter so that is a real possibility and that would be a Capricorn country/region. For craft and rank we do have the Venus square even though she's out of sect and in an ineffective place and again the Mercury/Sun trines that but the Mars/Saturn combo is going to frustrate things and make it difficult to achieve what they want.

The dodekatemoria of Moon/Mercury are right where Saturn is and Hessie from Thebes says that's unexpected strength. Maybe Saturn makes things difficult but not as difficult or instead of being between a rock and a hard place he's just at a hard place.

Anyway, that's how you use dodekatemoria. I hope you're not paying that guy.

Then he said: [[ Even discarding that, the fact remains that Mars is the only Ruler of Cancer placed in a Sign that can see the 1st House.
Having the Contrary-to-Sect Malefic CONNECTED to the Helm--Asc.
The fact that Mars is hosting and co-present with the other malefic is an aggravating factor.
The fact that it´s overcoming the Bound ruler of the ASC is also afflictive.

That guy is incompetent. He doesn't even understand sect. Mars is not "contrary-to-sect."

Valens says it is necessary to examine the sects of the stars: for day births the sun, Jupiter, and Saturn rejoice above the earth; for night births, below the earth. For night births the moon, Mars, and Venus rejoice above the earth; for day births below the earth.

How could it not be any more clear?

This is a diurnal chart. Valens says Venus and Mars rejoice below the earth. No kidding. Below the earth in a diurnal chart is the night sky. Mars is where he should be and more than that he's in a water sign and more than that he's in Scorpio. You couldn't ask for a better Mars.

Actually, you could. 11th place Mars day or night is great. The only thing better than that would be 11th place Aries Mars in a diurnal chart. 7th place Sun or Jupiter making a trine would make a beautiful Mars. Same for 11th place Scorpio Mars in a nocturnal chart with Sun or Jupiter in the 7th place below the horizon trine Mars.

Valens says for day births Jupiter and Saturn rejoice above the earth. Well, yeah, because that's where they daylight is. Are Jupiter and Saturn above the earth? Nope. Saturn is below the earth. Saturn is the bad guy here not Mars.

If that guy can't wrap his brain around that you need to drop him like a grenade.

Is Saturn placed in a poor position? Yes. Does that make it worse than Mars? Not really. And since they´re so combined, trying to figure out which one is worse may not be very useful. Having said that, Mars is Connected to the Asc in ways and that make him more relevant. ]]

Normally a 5th place Scorpio Saturn isn't harmful. It sometimes indicates the death of the first born, and the out of sect Venus in the superior position square from the 8th place hints at that but the other children are normal. Saturn's revolution and return to the 5th place Scorpio helps the native. Saturn alone indicates unsteadiness and a lack of courage but that is negated by the presence of of the in sect Mars.

My other question, as you know see Natal. Scorpio Mars (the Out of Sect Malefic) is the Sole and Final dispositor in the Dispositor tree disposed all of the planets in the chart.

There's nothing wrong with Mars and the final dispositor is about as meaningless as the chart ruler which is likely Mercury. By my reckoning, Asc is in the terms of Mercury and Mercury trines Asc. Or you could do Valens and since Moon next enters Cancer and then Leo and then Virgo that makes Mercury the chart ruler for all it's worth which is nothing. Valens didn't think the sect rulers should be chart rulers. It doesn't change anything.

The reason I think there's so many techniques is bedside manner. "Your chart is bad but it isn't that bad." And if you're going to spend time, the dodekatemoria and antiscia will tell you more than the chart ruler will.

BUT my concern is the Dodecatemoria chart below,
as you see Natal Scorpio Saturn is conjunct on the Dodecaemoria Moon and Mercury. And Natal Cancer Asc is in Dode 24 deg Scorpio, the EXACT deg of the Natal 24 deg Scorpio Mars, so Natal Mars is exactly on Dodecatemoria Ascendant.
Should I be concern that Mars is more evil and harmful for the native?

No. This is not a slave chart. If you read Aristotle and people should since he was Greek, he lumps free people in with slaves but that's because in Greek culture they did not define socio-economic classes they way we define them. Slaves were anyone, free or not, who did manual/menial labor all their lives because that's all they could ever be. Yes, carpentry is manual labor but it requires a skill unlike shoveling out horse stables which I assure you requires none.

This is the chart of a decent person, meaning not evil, who is fairly intelligent and has a little higher station in life than most but probably doesn't have the best attitude toward life and has trouble completing things. I'm wondering if they would drop out of college or finish. They will have a few more problems than most people and instead of focusing on Mars/Saturn I'd be paying attention to the out of sect Moon, the out of sect Venus and the out of sect Jupiter, especially Jupiter since he's in the 7th place opposing the 1st place. I hope you're not this person's mother because you probably won't like their choice of partners and they'll have problems with partners but then many people do. Actually, most people do. Very few people get married and live happily ever after and there's a reason why that's true and astrology explains it.

If you look at the 11th place from Fortune which is the place of accomplishment that is the 2nd place Leo and Sun is in aversion. That reinforces not attaining the goals they set out to achieve.

It isn't that this person can't have a good life it's that they're going to struggle a lot so instead of wasting time fussing over stupid stuff like final dispositors you need to be profecting the chart to find the most opportune times to do things so's they have the greatest chance of success and to avoid getting bogged down in the least opportune times.

 

[geminimercury]

Ascendant is in Venus Bound/term. Please look at the Astrodients chart above, 12 degrees Cancer Asc is in Venus Bound (Egyptian Bound/term), BUT Aquarius Venus is Aversion to Cancer Asc, so it not helping neither.

But Venus herself is in Mars Bound, as so Sun in Mars Bound, Mercury in Mars Bound.

 

[geminimercury]

This is the Dodecatemoria and Natal.
And I look at alot of Dodecatemoria chart, and I rarely find one where the Dodecatemoria Ascendant is at EXACT degree and sign as the Natal birth Malefic Mars, this case it Natal 24 degrees Scorpio Mars, which become the 24 degrees Scorpio Asc in Dodecatemoria. Mars is actually important in this specific chart.

This is the Dodecatemoria chart, should I concern that Mars might harm the Ascendant? Or more like in the Dodecatemoria chart, it is Saturn that harm the Asc.

 

[geminimercury]

Btw, Sir @DC80 do you use Eyptian Bound/term table? I posted the Egyptian Bound/term table, and the Astrodients chart above with the Egyptian Bound.
eta: I see you use Valens Bound, but in Valens Anthologies himself, he uses Egyptian Bound. I have the Valens Anthologies.

Books: Vettius Valens Anthologies Annotated. It the extended version consist of 700 pages! Annotated and with lots of charts!, in small .Pdf file size.
Here you can download Valens Anthologies: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/janegca/latex-valens/main/Valens-Anthologies-Annotated.pdf

12 degrees Cancer Asc is in VENUS Bound (birth time recorded in birth certificate as 1:15PM), not Mercury. This person is 12 degrees Cancer Asc. Venus in Aquarius is Aversion to Cancer Asc, so it not helping the Asc being in Venus Bound.
That leave Mars has more power.

And I don't see how Venus has the superior Square, the sign Scorpio RISES before the sign Aquarius, Cancer Acsendant marked 1st house, that is Scorpio 5th house, and Aquarius 8th house. Mars is to the right of the Square. Mars win by both by sign and by house. Mars Domicile in Scorpio. Venus in Perigrine has no dignity in Air sign Aquarius.

Astrologer told me that. Unless I'm missing something.

And this person has Scorpio Mars Trine Pisces Mercury Applying, same with Mars Trine Sun too. As so Scorpio Saturn also Trine Sun and Mercury.
That Pisces Mercury is fine, it has helps from everywhere, Sun Square Mercury, Moon Square Mercury, Mars Trine Mercury, Saturn Trine Mercury.

 

[geminimercury]

Can anyone here post me Valens Bound/term table? As I have Valens Anthologies myself and Valens himself use EGYPTIAN Bound/term table in his example charts. By that, I always use Egyptian Bound, as I go by Valens Anthologies.
Valens himself did not use his own Bound/term, so can I see the table for Valens Bound?

And this chart is a chart of someone who came to U.S. since was just a little kid under Political Asylum status. It happened under the Profection year where Mars was the Profection Lord of that year. And Mars Trine Mercury in 9th Applying Trine. So Mars probably activate the event transit.

And the chart show too, the native is the Moon in the chart, but Moon is in 12th going away from Asc 1st house native birth place, 12th house also represent Permanent foreign settlement and prison and Asylum too. And this person came to USA since little under Political Asylum, and has been living in USA for 30+ years.

You know what so weird is the state that took the native Political Asylum and give him permanent settlement there is actually right on SATURN line, I don't know if you into Astrocartography, but this person is living right on Saturn line for 30+ years. I show you the Astrocartography chart:
Maybe it time to move to another state?

An astrologer told me it actually Jupiter that help him, and Jupiter is not evil in this chart at all. Why? Because Jupiter eventhough it in Fall in Capricorn BUT Jupiter in his own Bound and own Face. Also, this person has Syzygy Moon (Prenatal Moon) in Pisces which rule by Jupiter and Syzygy Moon also in Jupiter Bound. So Jupiter is very protective of this place.

And Jupiter is not weak in this chart, it in it own Bound/term and face/decan, and angular. And from where Jupiter position in this chart (angular), Jupiter see EVERYTHING, including see what Mars and Saturn doing.

And I did check the Planetary Strength Analysis in PlanetDance software, Jupiter is the second strongest planet in this chart, just behind Mars ONE single point. Just look at the Grand tocal point at the bottom, Mars the highest, with Jupiter come in second right behind Mars.

I have mix feelings about this, I don't know how evil is this Capricorn Jupiter in this chart. But Jupiter sure is on Saturn side since Scorpio Saturn rule Capricorn Jupiter. But then Scorpio Mars rule Scorpio Saturn, so Saturn is a one very pissed off and unhappy planet.

 

[geminimercury]

Books: Vettius Valens Anthologies Annotated. It the extended version consist of 700 pages! Annotated and with lots of charts!, in small .Pdf file size.
Here you can download Valens Anthologies: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/janegca/latex-valens/main/Valens-Anthologies-Annotated.pdf

Can I see the Valens Bound table? So far I have not come across it. As in Valens book he wrote himself he use Egyptian Bound table, as at the time Hellenistic use Egyptian Bound.

https://altairastrology.wordpress.com/2009/03/01/more-on-the-terms-or-bounds/In this site there 3 Bound/term table, one is Egyptian, one is Ptolomeic and one is Chaldean. There no Valens anywhere.

According to Ptolemy and Chaldean, 12 degrees Cancer Acs is in Jupiter Bound. In Egyptian Bound, 12 degree Cancer Asc is in Venus Bound.
I do NOT ever see anywhere said 12 degrees Cancer Asc is in Mercury bound, so I need a source for that, or Valens Bound table.

Birth time is recorded on birth certificate of born at 1:15PM, even if the hospital round up few minutes, that is still a 11 degrees to 12 degrees Cancer Asc. And according to birth time it Cancer 12 degrees 4 min, it is in Venus Bound (Egyptian), or Jupiter (Ptolemy and Chealdean Bound).

 

[DC80]

Can I see the Valens Bound table?

Yes, you can see the table I have from Valens. Please note I use 1° to 30° and not 0° to 29°.

To read this chart, Aries first bound Jupiter 6° from 1°-6° second bound Venus 6° from 7°-12° third bound Mercury 8° from 13°-20° and so on.

I promise I won't cry if you redo the chart for 0°-29° and make it prettier.

.