Hellenistic/Medieval/Traditional only: Is Saturn more evil/problematic than Mars in this Daychart?

[DC80]

And this chart is a chart of someone who came to U.S. since was just a little kid under Political Asylum status.

I was just looking at the major chart features, but as I pointed out there were three indicators that they would leave their homeland or live/work outside their homeland.

It happened under the Profection year where Mars was the Profection Lord of that year. And Mars Trine Mercury in 9th Applying Trine. So Mars probably activate the event transit.

Very good. I would draw the same conclusion. Because Mars was the year ruler, you would want to pay attention to Mars transits and those of the time rule and co-ruler as well and any stars activated by the profection meaning any stars in the place that comes to the Asc.

That's where I recommend lunar returns. I don't cast a lunar return for each month of the profection year. You know the year ruler or one of the time rulers is transiting a sign and will enter a new sign or is already there and will start making aspects so you cast the lunar returns for those months.

If you absolutely positively need to know a bureaucrat is going to sign off on their asylum at 10:48 am on a particular day you can do the distributions from year to month to day to hour to minute but that's a lot of work.

You know what so weird is the state that took the native Political Asylum and give him permanent settlement there is actually right on SATURN line, I don't know if you into Astrocartography, but this person is living right on Saturn line for 30+ years. I show you the Astrocartography chart:
Maybe it time to move to another state?

I've not investigated astrocartography but it might be worthwhile to look into it.

An astrologer told me it actually Jupiter that help him, and Jupiter is not evil in this chart at all. Why? Because Jupiter eventhough it in Fall in Capricorn BUT Jupiter in his own Bound and own Face. Also, this person has Syzygy Moon (Prenatal Moon) in Pisces which rule by Jupiter and Syzygy Moon also in Jupiter Bound. So Jupiter is very protective of this place.

Being out of sect doesn't make a star evil. That only makes it contrary to its nature and it brings out the worse characteristics of the star which can be exaggerated by the sign it's in. An out of sect Jupiter can be unduly optimistic, complacent, proud, and/or hypocritically pious.

The issue isn't Jupiter in fall. It is warm and moist Jupiter in the cold night sky in the cold moist sign of Capricorn.

And Jupiter is not weak in this chart, it in it own Bound/term and face/decan, and angular. And from where Jupiter position in this chart (angular), Jupiter see EVERYTHING, including see what Mars and Saturn doing.

I don't know who would be dumb enough to say Jupiter is weak in this chart. The Greeks repeatedly stress that Venus or Jupiter or both on the angles can mitigate the harm of malefics and even elevate a chart.

The first group and most powerful of the angles are the Asc and IC. The second group and less powerful are the MC and Dsc but angles are more powerful than places falling away from the angles. Again, the issue is not Jupiter in fall it's Jupiter in the night sky in cold moist Capricorn. It would be better if Jupiter were in an air/fire sign or his night house Pisces.

And I did check the Planetary Strength Analysis in PlanetDance software, Jupiter is the second strongest planet in this chart, just behind Mars ONE single point. Just look at the Grand tocal point at the bottom, Mars the highest, with Jupiter come in second right behind Mars.

Don't get hung up on numbers because they tell you nothing and you end up going sideways and never get to where you want to be which is interpreting the chart.

Mars is the good guy in this chart.

I have mix feelings about this, I don't know how evil is this Capricorn Jupiter in this chart. But Jupiter sure is on Saturn side since Scorpio Saturn rule Capricorn Jupiter. But then Scorpio Mars rule Scorpio Saturn, so Saturn is a one very pissed off and unhappy planet.

Yes, Saturn is malefic because he's out of sect and he's cold and dry sitting in the cold night sky in cold and watery Scorpio.

 

[DC80]

And I don't see how Venus has the superior Square, the sign Scorpio RISES before the sign Aquarius, Cancer Acsendant marked 1st house, that is Scorpio 5th house, and Aquarius 8th house. Mars is to the right of the Square. Mars win by both by sign and by house. Mars Domicile in Scorpio. Venus in Perigrine has no dignity in Air sign Aquarius.

Astrologer told me that. Unless I'm missing something.

Superior/dexter/right and inferior/sinister/left. I don't like using superior/inferior because it confuses people with superior/inferior stars.

Oppositions have no dexter/right or sinister/left.

The zodiac moves clockwise. The stars move counter-clockwise. The star that is ahead which is also looking back/backward at the stars it is aspecting has the superior position.

Venus is ahead of Mars/Saturn and looking back at them so she is dexter/right and holds the superior position.

If Venus was in Leo then Mars/Saturn would be ahead of her looking back at Leo Venus and they would be in the superior position.

Maybe Firmi can explain it better than I can:

But which is the right and which the left square you will find in a similar way to that which we described for the trine. For whatever is in back, that is a right square; the left square of Aries is Cancer, the right is Capricorn, just as in all other squares; what is in back is right and what is ahead is left. This is also a threatening sign and full of adverse influence.

So the left square of Aquarius is Taurus and the right square of Aquarius is Scorpio. It does seem counter-intuitive but that's how it's done.

Venus is the faster of Mars/Saturn so Venus is in an applying dexter/right square to Mars/Saturn. She holds the superior position and we interpret left/right squares and left/right trines and left/right sextiles differently.

 

[DC80]

This is the Dodecatemoria chart, should I concern that Mars might harm the Ascendant? Or more like in the Dodecatemoria chart, it is Saturn that harm the Asc.

No. Mars is benefic. He cannot possibly harm the Asc. Not only does benefic Mars not harm the Asc he is in the superior/dexter/right trine to Asc so that helps even more. If Mars would be in Pisces he would be in an inferior/sinister/left trine to the Asc and not as powerful. That is why the 5th place is more powerful than the 9th place because the 5th place makes the superior trine and the 9th place makes the inferior trine.

You said the native came to America seeking political asylum.

Benefic Mars trine Asc is why it happened.

If benefic Mars squared Asc it would happen but with difficulties.

If benefic Mars sextiles Asc it would likely not happen at all. Why? Sextiles are weak and when Taurus, Leo, Scorpio, or Aquarius is the sign separating the sextile it prevents things from happening.

 

[DC80]

t


I think this chart might help you and others understand and improve your readings.

Look, ma, no numbers. I don't do numbers. Numbers are stupid. Numbers are bad. Everything you need to know is right there in the chart.

This chart has a Cancer 14° Asc and an Aquarius Venus and a Mars/Saturn conjunction in Scorpio just like your guy.

And just like your guy, this guy left his homeland. Even so he often works in his former homeland and works in other countries and he has craft and rank.

What's the difference? Sect.

This is a nocturnal chart and sect ruler Moon is out of sect and so is Mars. Mercury, Venus, Jupiter, and Saturn are all in sect.

How do we interpret the Mars/Saturn conjunction? We already did for your guy but we need to refine it a bit here.

Mars is hot and dry. Put Mars in the daytime sky and he's hotter and drier and put him in the daytime sky in a fire/air sign and he's too hot and too dry. That Mars is a loose cannon. Ambition rises to the level of greed and excess. Drive? That Mars is in hyper-drive. Very aggressive, the kind of person who will knock people down and climb over their living or dead bodies to get what they want.

You want something to rein in Mars. Moon, Mercury, and Venus are not up to the task because they're weaker than Mars. You need Jupiter or Saturn to take control of Mars.

Saturn can temper the ambition, drive, and aggressiveness of Mars. The problem is Saturn can drown the ambition and drive to make a person lethargic, and make them passive and lacking assertiveness. That's where Jupiter comes in. He tempers Mars just enough to be effective but if Jupiter is out of sect and/or in the wrong sign he can worsen things.

Just like your guy, this is a sober well-balanced human being. Like your guy, this guy has a difficult time getting what he wants but he doesn't have to struggle as much as your guy because Mars/Saturn being in the daylight gives Mars more ambition and drive, and aggressive in taking risks your guy probably wouldn't take.

Your guy has the out of sect Asc ruler Moon in the 12th place and here we have out of sect Moon angular in the 4th place squaring Asc.

For both charts Fortune is in Libra but in this chart the dodekatemoria of Fortune is sitting right on top of in-sect Jupiter. That's what you want. If Venus or Jupiter aren't sitting there then you want them casting their rays at that dodekatemoria point and you want the malefics in aversion unless the malefics are benefic. Your guy had the dodekatemoria of Fortune at Sagittarius 11° sitting on the south node with Jupiter in aversion, in the term of Saturn with Saturn in aversion, and with Moon in aversion.

So my guy has Fortune with Moon and the dodekatemoria sitting on top of Jupiter and he has more good luck, more good fortune, more wealth, and a higher station in life than your guy will ever have because of it and I didn't need any numbers because numbers tell you nothing.

The Greek word synkrasis means to blend. It doesn't mean look at a bunch of numbers. The numbers don't take the temperaments of the signs and planets into account and that's what you need to do to read the chart.

 

[geminimercury]

Thank you Sir @DC80
The year he immigrant to U.S. that year Profection Lord was Mars. Also in the Solar Return what odd is Solar Return Mars was right on the Ascendant EXACTLY at 0 orb.
So Solar Return Mars was in 12 degrees Cancer right on the native 12 degrees Cancer Asc, Profection Lord is Natal birth Scorpio Mars ofcourse.
....
I was told it Jupiter help him come to U.S (I not sure if it Jupiter), because clearly the Solar Return chart said otherwise, it was Solar Mars right on the Ascendant exactly at 0 orb, with Natal birth Mars as the Profection Lord.
Solar Jupiter that year was in Libra.

This is your Valens Bound chart, can you look again for me Sir, clearly native is 12 degrees 4 min Cancer Ascendant, that is in Venus Bound, NOT Mercury. It said right there in the chart, up to 13 degrees is in Venus Bound, and native is 12 degrees Cancer Asc.
Venus in Aquarius air sign is Aversion to Cancer water sign, so that will leave Mars in Scorpio whom Domicile and in water sign as the only Triplicity Lord that the Cancer Asc can see.

So is his 12 degrees 4 min Cancer Ascendant is in Venus Bound right?

I'm a slow learner so forgive me, his Scorpio Mars Square Aquarius Venus at 0 orb it said SEPARATING in Astrodients (chart below), if it is Separating Square, then Mars has the upper hand here. The Square, it is not Applying aspect, it is Separating aspect.
I quote this from Hellenistic book:
Mars and Venus are in square aspect with Mars holding the superior part of a right square/upper position of the right square.

 

[geminimercury]

ok, I'm going to post the Natal vs Dodecatemoria chart with the aspects so it easier to see.

I do not see how a Natal Gemini Moon can be Aversion to a Dodecatemoria Sagittarius Lot of Fortune, the sign Gemini and Sagittarius are Opposition.

I don't know how to read Dodecatemoria, but the astrologer (a woman) last time told me Jupiter is very protective of this chart, Dodecatemoria show it. So unless that woman read it wrong, but she study alot of Hellenistic stuff, so she has to know what she talking about, and her conclusion that Mars is evil in this specific chart, and it is Jupiter that save the chart and save the native.

 

[DC80]

Mars has an undisputable rulership over the Ascendant via Triplicity.
What this astrologer means was Triplicity of Pisces Sun (his Sect) light, and Cancer Asc, so we go Water Trigon, which is Venus Mars Moon.

No, he's clueless. You need to dump him. All he'll do is confuse you and tell you wrong.

That chart is diurnal. Sun is sect ruler. Sun rules the fire trigon and only the fire trigon and no other trigon. The fact that Sun is in Pisces means Sun is not in his proper trigon. Because Sun is in a feminine sign and the water trigon he is actually debilitated. Jupiter is the participating fire trigon ruler but he is in an earth sign. In a nocturnal chart, Jupiter is the fire trigon ruler and Sun participates.

Because this is a diurnal chart, Venus is the water trigon ruler. Mars participates. Venus is in aversion to Asc. Asc ruler Moon is in aversion to Asc. Mars is in the water trigon and is participating ruler and he aspects Asc and that is why he is Asc ruler and not Sun or Venus or Moon.

And also I was told by the astrologer, Mars hold the Superior Square because the sign Scorpio 5th house RISES BEFORE the sign Aquarius 8th house,

He's wrong and he can't find any Greeks to back him up.

All the Greeks say the same thing. Left/right is determined by the relationship of the stars in aspect. Rising times have nothing to do with it.

Valens says:
In general a star which heads for/aims at another from the right is in superior aspect to the other; the same is true of a star which has a correspondingly superior power.
Valens doesn't make it as clear as Firmi does:

But which is the right and which the left square you will find in a similar way to that which we described for the trine. For whatever is in back, that is a right square; the left square of Aries is Cancer, the right is Capricorn, just as in all other squares; what is in back is right and what is ahead is left. This is also a threatening sign and full of adverse influence.
The stars move counter-clockwise. Venus is ahead of Mars/Saturn and she's looking back at them. That puts her in the superior position.

Think of a marathon race. You're running and you look back at the people running behind you. Are they in the superior position? No, you are because you're ahead of them. Same here for Venus.

I always tell people to find the opposition point. If Venus were in opposition to star, where would it be? The planets to the right of that opposition are in the inferior position because Venus is head of them looking back at them. The planets to the left of the opposition point would be ahead of Venus. She would be chasing them looking forward at them instead of backward at them.

There's a big difference between left/right sextiles, squares, and trines. It can change the meaning.

Valens says Saturn square Sun and on the left harms the ancestral property while the native’s father is still alive, especially when Saturn is in feminine signs. If Saturn is on the right, the forecast will be worse.

That's because Saturn would be in the superior position on the right looking back at Sun.

 

[geminimercury]

@DC80

Thank you Sir DC, I learn alot from you.

 

[geminimercury]

Here is a quote from Martin Gansten:
[[ In Greek, the concept often translated as domination is derived from the word deka, 'ten'. When two planets form a square, A will be in the 10th sign from B, and B will be in the 4th sign from A (counting inclusively, in zodiacal order). The planet that is in the 10th from the other dominates the aspect. ]]

I count, Scorpio Mars is in 10th sign, not Aquarius Venus, I still see Mars in a superior Square here, plus the Square is Separating aspect, we talking about Square here, not Opposition, and I counted, Mars is in the 10th sign from the other.

 

[DC80]

I gave you the wrong terms for Valens (it was an older one that someone didn't do right and I forgot to delete).

Valens used diurnal and nocturnal (like the Chaldeans).

 

[DC80]

Here is a quote from Martin Gansten:
[[ In Greek, the concept often translated as domination is derived from the word deka, 'ten'. When two planets form a square, A will be in the 10th sign from B, and B will be in the 4th sign from A (counting inclusively, in zodiacal order). The planet that is in the 10th from the other dominates the aspect. ]]

I count, Scorpio Mars is in 10th sign, not Aquarius Venus, I still see Mars in a superior Square here, plus the Square is Separating aspect, we talking about Square here, not Opposition, and I counted, Mars is in the 10th sign from the other.

He's wrong. I posted exactly what Firmi said but you don't have to read anything you just have to understand the basic concepts of Astrology 101.

The reason the 9th place is more powerful than the 5th place is because the 1st place is looking back at the 9th place making a right trine. It looks ahead to the 5th place and makes a left trine. Right is more powerful.

The reason the 10th place/MC is more powerful than the 4th place/IMC is because the 1st place is looking back at the 10th place making a right trine. It looks ahead and makes a left trine to the 4th place/IMC.

The 11th place is more powerful than the 3rd place because the 1st place is looking back making a right sextile. It looks forward and makes a left sextile to the 3rd place.

That isn't the only reason. The other reason and also the reason why the 3rd place is considered an ineffective place like the 2nd, 6th, 8th, and 12th places is what sigh is between the 1st place and 3rd place? That would be 2nd place Taurus which is a fixed/solid sign,

Right sextiles are weak.
Left sextiles are weaker.
Right sextiles with a solid/fixed sign between them are as weak as a left sextile.
Left sextiles with a solid/fixed sign between them are basically not even an aspect. Regard. That's where you're at.

The same for exaltations. The exaltation of Venus is Pisces and not Cancer because Venus is looking back making a right sextile to Pisces. Aries is the exaltation of Sun because Leo Sun looks back and makes a right trine to Aries. Saturn looks back and makes a right trine to Libra.

The point of view is always the aspecting star in planetary order based on speed. No one can make an aspect to Moon and Saturn cannot aspect any star. Mercury aspects everyone but Moon. Venus aspects everyone but Moon and Mercury. Sun aspects everyone but Venus, Mercury and Moon and so on.

Another easy way is turn the chart so the star making the aspect is in the 10th place/position. Are stars to the left or right?

I use the original trigon by the Chaldeans and Greeks. Sun rules fire in the day. Jupiter at night. Venus rules earth in the day and Moon at night. Saturn rules air by day and Mercury rules air by night. Mars rules water day and night. Venus participates with Mars in day and Moon with Mars at night.

The Chaldeans, Greeks and Egyptians (basically same thing as Greeks) had an order of precedent for the Asc. If Asc ruler aspects you're good. If not, you defer to the trigon ruler. If the trigon ruler doesn't aspect you have a serious problem. You defer to the sect ruler and if the sect ruler doesn't make an aspect to the Asc you defer to the non-sect ruler.

I've seen thousands of charts but few with the sect ruler as Asc ruler. That makes perfect sense to me because if you read Ptolemy, Critodemus, Valens, Firmicus or Dorotheus and they're talking about infants/children not reared that's what they're talking about. Infants and children who die don't live long enough to make their mark in this world and have their birth data in Lois Rodden's big giant collection.

The few I have seen with sect ruler ruling Asc are in the infamous category because most of them were crime victims but that also makes perfect sense since the Asc ruler and trigon ruler are probably in the 6th, 8th or 12th places. The few who did survive had Venus or Jupiter on an angle like the 1st or 10th place. That's one time you don't really want them in the 4th or 7th, especially in human or violent signs.

 

[geminimercury]

Sorry, we just going to have to agreed to disagreed. 9th house is a CADENT house falling from the Ascendant, in every single astrology textbooks, 9th will NEVER be more powerful than 5th house a SUCCEEDANT house.

Sorry, Martin Gansten did not say that, he quote it directly from the Greek, you said he wrong meaning you say the Greek were wrong.
[[ In Greek, the concept often translated as domination is derived from the word deka, 'ten'. When two planets form a square, A will be in the 10th sign from B, and B will be in the 4th sign from A (counting inclusively, in zodiacal order). The planet that is in the 10th from the other dominates the aspect. ]]

I will go with what multiples astrologers told me, Scorpio Mars 5th house dominant the Square to Aquarius Venus 8th house. I counted, just like what that above told me to. And I will go with the Greek quote on this, this has nothing to do with Martin Gansten, he quoted from the Greeks.

 

[JUPITERASC]

Sorry, Martin Gansten did not say that, he quote it directly from the Greek,
you said he wrong meaning you say the Greek were wrong.

"..Well over 90% of everything that was ever written on the subject is lost
so
debating what Greek astrologers said/did
is probably an exercise in futility.."
Curtis Manwaring Horoscope X-files


.

 

[JUPITERASC]

Sect is the key to everything.
Diurnal sect: a luminary (Sun), a benefic (Jupiter), a malefic (Saturn)
Nocturnal sect: a luminary (Moon), a benefic (Venus), a malefic (Mars)

Where's Mercury fit in? I'm reluctant to use the term wildcard because people misconstrue it. Mercury is the variable. The chameleon that changes things. That's what he does. Mercury follows the sect ruler.

In a diurnal chart you want Mercury in above horizon in the day sky and in a nocturnal chart you want Mercury above horizon in the night sky and since Mercury's never more than 28° away from Sun that's only possible if Sun is in the 1st place and Mercury is rising ahead of Sun or Sun is in the 7th place and Mercury is above horizon trailing Sun.

Think of sect as being some place you want to be versus some place you don't want to be.

I'm in Iraq. Do I want to be there? Hell no and I'm madder than hell. Do I get to be in Baghdad where life is easier? No, I'm in Basrah where every minute sucks so you embrace the suck and drive on.

I'm at Youngstown State. I'm happy. I'm taking a class I don't really like so I'm annoyed but I'll survive. I'm taking a class I really want to take so I'm way happier.

I'm at the BMV. I don't really want to be there but I have to get my driver's license renewed. The BMV people aggravate me. The people in the BMV annoy me and somebody's comfort dog masquerading as a service dog and we know that because it's running around like an idiot and not comforting to me really irritates me but I'm not ready to start shooting the place up.

The stars are just like that.

In this chart, Moon, Venus, Jupiter and Saturn are out of sect and Sun and Mars are in sect. Without slogging through all the philosophical texts, Sun can't be completely out of sect ever, because that would mean you don't exist.

Malefics can be benefic and benefics can be malefic and we know that because Valens says so, the Firmi guy says so, the Dori guy says so, they all say so and the way we know the difference is sect. Diurnal 12th place Saturn is good, but nocturnal 12th place Saturn is bad. Diurnal 12th place Mars is bad but nocturnal 12th place Mars is good because he alleviates all the bad and if he's in a feminine sign he's that much better and if he's in his trigon or his own sign (that would have to be Scorpio in a nocturnal chart) he's even better.

The Mars in this chart at first glance is benefic because he's below the horizon in a diurnal chart, in a feminine sign, in the trigon he rules, and in his own proper sign in the night sky. My software considers place as part of sect but the Greeks didn't. Yes, he would be the proper Asc ruler for this chart since Moon is in aversion.

However, the good Mars could do is stymied by Saturn who is a diurnal planet in the night sky where you don't want him, and in a feminine sign, and a water sign and Scorpio. Saturn is malefic here not Mars.

To show you how sect plays out, Mars in the 5th place in Scorpio in the night sky is good fortune. If Sun were below horizon, then Mars would be in the day-time sky and being in the 5th place is disaster and danger and should Moon be in the 11th place opposing Mars it would be even worse.

Mars is with Saturn. We treat that the way we'd treat any star. Mars is hot. Saturn is cold. Mix hot and cold and you get warm. Mars indicates aggressive tendencies Saturn softens that aggression. That's a person who is in control and being in control is not the same thing as being controlling. Mars is impatience and rash actions leaping before you look kind of thing but Saturn blunts that. What we have here is a sober well-balanced human being and since Mars rules the Asc that's exactly what you'd want.

The down side to that is Mars is drive/ambition. That's why usually you want Jupiter with Mars. Usually. When they're together one is always out of sect and you don't want that in an air sign. Mars is always running and Saturn is walking and here he's walking backwards. This person is not likely to attain what they set out to achieve. When Saturn is in the night sky and whether the chart is diurnal or nocturnal makes no difference, you want Saturn in his night house Capricorn. If he can't be there he needs to be in fire or air. If Saturn is in water or any earth other than Capricorn he's slower and more sluggish and dumbs down things to a crawl. The night is cold. Water and earth are cold. You want fire/air to warm Saturn up.

With 12th place Gemini Moon being in aversion to Mars/Saturn and Asc they're probably apathetic having a sort of whatever happens happens attitude. That isn't the same thing as never finishing what they start because that requires both Moon and Mercury and we don't have that. We do have 9th place Pisces Mercury in trine so they're probably intelligent and no, being in Pisces doesn't harm Mercury but being in opposition to the 3rd place he would obstruct/frustrate matters there.

The two bad things in this chart are the Mars/Saturn square with the out of sect Venus. Fortunately, Venus holds the superior position, and the Moon/Venus trine.

I figure that's what you really want to know and I didn't have to jump through mental acrobatics to figure it out.

 

[DC80]

Sorry, Martin Gansten did not say that, he quote it directly from the Greek, you said he wrong meaning you say the Greek were wrong.
[[ In Greek, the concept often translated as domination is derived from the word deka, 'ten'. When two planets form a square, A will be in the 10th sign from B, and B will be in the 4th sign from A (counting inclusively, in zodiacal order). The planet that is in the 10th from the other dominates the aspect. ]]

I will go with what multiples astrologers told me, Scorpio Mars 5th house dominant the Square to Aquarius Venus 8th house. I counted, just like what that above told me to. And I will go with the Greek quote on this, this has nothing to do with Martin Gansten, he quoted from the Greeks.

How many times has the native been married and how long did the marriage(s) last?

 

[geminimercury]

I did send you native birthday info in private message Sir @DC80, just in case.

Native is married, still married, and married only once, has been married for 10+ years, in fact in it Fall Capricorn Jupiter didn't treat him that bad, the best thing happen to native life is his marriage.

Cancer Asc started age 0 in Annual Profection, that make age 1 is Leo, so Aries MC line 10th house that marked age 9 Profection, Mars rule it.

Native came to USA at age 9, the Profection Lord of age 9 was Aries, rule by Mars as the Profection Lord that year, natal birth Mars is strong in Scropio.

Native married at age 28, the Profection Lord of age 28 is Scorpio, rule by Mars, and natal birth Mars is in Scropio.

Native have his first son at age 33, guess who the Lord of age 33, it was Aries, so Mars was the Profection Lord, Mars again.

So 3 of the native biggest events happened are ALL were when Mars was the Profection Lord. Sorry, this is NOT a coincident.

The year was that most painful year in native life was age 35, that was when his biological father died of Lung Cancer, and also that same year, our toddler died. Mercury was the Profection Lord of age 35

I not even sure if Mars it he problem here. I get different answer from different astrologers (and it free reading in AdvancedAstrology sub), one was adamant it Mars that keep save the native in the chart, and one was ADAMANT that it the Fall Capricorn Jupiter keep save the native.

 

[geminimercury]

This is the Solar Return when he was 9 years old, Aries was the Profection Lord that year which is Mars.

He went from a boy who live on the street homeless with not have food to eat, his father was a Prisoner of War was in Communist jail, their house was taking by Communist, him and his older sibling and his mom have to live on the street under a roof, his older sibling die of starvation, it was about to be his turn.
But at age 9, his family America grant Asylum, he was able to step foot on the airplane America give him permanent residency under Political Asylum, got out of poverty, have a better life and future here in U.S.

This is the Solar Return at age 9 chart, Aries Profection Lord, Mars.

I clearly see Solar Mars was EXACTLY on his natal Ascendant, so Mars has to activate something.
....
I keep looking at it, to see which planet help help as hadn't America grant him Asylum, he will die in his birth country.
I can't pinpoint out one planet, I actually see ALL the planets work together to help him, even Venus (and I was told natal Venus in Idle 8th house is evil, as so Venus Ruler natal Saturn).
....
But clearly Solar Jupiter and Moon in Libra which rule by Venus. Solar Venus in Aries which rule by Mars. Solar Saturn in Aquarius being Square by Natal Scorpio Mars, that red line going from Natal Scorpio Mars to Natal Aquarius Venus Square and also do the exact Square to Solar Saturn too.

I don't know, but this is the Solar Return chart that change his whole life, everything he has now in America (house, cars, job, marriage, bank accounts, savings, 401k, IRA, retirement pension, healthcare, life insurance) is whatever in his chart grant to him.

A marriage, a spouse here in America is also something in his chart grant him too. He is a VERY hard person to live with, I can tell you that. Insanely Domineering and Controlling and DICTATOR as f-ck. Obtinate as f-ck too, do what he says, or there is the door, get the f-ck out of his house type.
Only his spouse can endure it, it over decade long marriage.

He is f-king BLESSED in marriage life. Rather it the Fall Jupiter (rule by Saturn) in it own Bound save him, or with the Domicile Scorpio Mars whom Rule Scropio Saturn whom is the Ruler of his 7th house save him. But he is hella lucky in his marriage.
Other people would have divorce handed to their face already, this is America, divorce spouse get half of everything, but instead he has a spouse that is a love-idiot whom chose to s-uck it up and stay with him regardless of anything. Rather astrology is pseudoscience, or there has to be a planet in here that keep save him time after time. It rather Mars or Jupiter, I was told it Jupiter.

 

[DC80]

Native is married, still married, and married only once, has been married for 10+ years, in fact in it Fall Capricorn Jupiter didn't treat him that bad, the best thing happen to native life is his marriage.

I know you're busy, so I appreciate you taking the time to answer.

Never forget the faces/decans. Valens, Firmicus, Dorotheus and (I think) Rhetorius all say when a star is in its own face it acts as though it were in its own sign.

Jupiter at Capricorn 9° is in his own face/decan.

So, which sign? None of the texts clarify that and I've never seen traditional astrologers comment on it. There's no issue for Sun/Moon but the day signs are Mercury/Gemini, Venus/Taurus, Mars/Aries, Jupiter/Sagittarius, and Saturn/Aquarius and for night Mercury/Virgo, Venus/Libra, Mars/Scorpio, Jupiter/Pisces, and Saturn/Capricorn.

I used to use the star's location in the chart so Jupiter setting in the night sky would be to me the same as Jupiter at Pisces 9° but after a while I started thinking sect overrides everything and since this a diurnal chart and Jupiter is the participating fire trigon ruler it should be Sagittarius 9°.

Don't forget the first 10° of Sagittarius are human and the last 20° are beasts. It makes a difference in interpretations.

For example, America's birth year is 1781 when the not only ratified the Articles of Confederation but also met in Congress for the first time so you take the 1781 Aries Ingress and it has Sagittarius rising which represents America. Now you take the Mars/Saturn conjunction occurring every 30 years in Sagittarius (not Cancer) and for the last one in 2016 you got Mars/Saturn conjunct at Sagittarius 8° which Ptolemy, the Arabs, Persians and others say portends plague. If it occurred in the latter 20° that would portend pestilence which is similar but not exactly the same thing as plague. It was not because they were at Sagittarius 8° it was because they were also in the 4th place which means Mars rules 8th place Aries and Saturn rules the 8th place from Fortune and both opposed Fortune and Virgo Jupiter in the Asc squared Mars/Saturn along with Virgo Sun ruling the 12th place square Mars/Saturn.

When you profect the chart to 2019 you can see it developing and then in 2020 (most software eyeballs it good enough but you should be using the rising times of the signs to profect) Mars/Saturn are profected to 12th place Aries and 8th place now has Sagittarius. It's all quite disturbing.

6th place is injury and surgery. 12th place is disease (bacterial/viral infection) and illness (internal organs not firing on all cylinders). And don't forget that of the mutable signs, Sagittarius is most mutable with sudden changes.

About the marriage.

In addition to Firmi, here's two more:

Dorotheus: If Saturn is in quartile of Venus, it indicates his fall from women, [that he will be] rejected [and] devoid of good, and every evil will come to him. But if Venus is overpowering it [Saturn], then he will be weary [and] difficult, but he will be blessed with a good wife who will be better than he in lineage, one who is admirable in herself together with her agreeing with his parents.

Valens: If Saturn and Venus are in square aspect with Saturn above, the natives will lose all inheritance and be reduced to beggary. They have bitter experiences with women; there is no pleasure in love nor successful results from their desires. But if Venus is in the superior position, she provides wives of respectable and chaste character who exercise the whole power in the home. They cherish their husbands with undivided affection and are equally loved by them.

So, which more accurately describes your client?

Saturn superior or Venus superior?

Because if you listen to those guys you'd botch the interpretation and mischaracterize the native.

But if you listen to me, you accurately characterize the native. That being said, you have to factor Mars into the equation. The native won't be that tired since Mars provides an boost in courage and strength.

There are many, many transmission errors exacerbated by badly translated texts. Robert Hand, Dorian Greenbaum, and Robert Schmidt and his wife (while they were still alive) work diligently to track down those errors and correct them, and correct the bad translations because a lot of people (including modern astrologers) are doing a whole lotta things the wrong way.

Take Fortune. That was taught to me as the Lot of the Moon and later as the lunar horoscope. The word "reverse" was both the transmission error and the translation error. Since it is the Lot of the Moon, reversing the formula never made any sense to me but now we know the correct method. The formula is usually given as:

Asc + Moon - Sun which is the same thing as Moon - Sun + Asc

When they said "reverse" the formula they actually meant reverse the direction projected from the Asc.

So, the night formula for Fortune is Moon - Sun - Asc or Asc - Moon - Sun

We know that in part because Lots were sign-based and not degree-based. They'd count signs between the two stars that are the significators for the Lot and then whatever number that was they would count from the Asc in zodiacal order or reverse and count contrary to zodiacal order.

"Superior" has serious problems with transmission errors and bad translations. "Superior" can mean...
1. the definition from Firmi that I gave you or
2. "Superior" as in "above" like the definition from Valens and the Venus/Saturn square. "Above" is better than "superior" but still not quite right because he actually means the star that is elevated. A star above the horizon in aspect to a star below the horizon is in the superior position. What do you do if both stars are above the horizon? The star that is closest to the degree of the MC (the MC point not the 10th place) is superior. If both stars are below the horizon then the one closest to Asc is superior.
3. "Superior" by longitude. That is the worst because the texts don't make that clear and Valens never makes it clear but he's actually using the longitude meaning the rising times of the stars in question. And then there's
4. "Superior" as in overcoming. That is a valid technique but not for natal charts. It was only used for transits to profected and natal charts. For example, transiting Mars conjunct Fortune opposing Asc did not kill the native. What killed the native was Jupiter transiting the 4th place and overcoming Mars/Fortune by square.

Transits are something everyone is doing wrong because of transmission errors. If a star is not the year ruler, time ruler or activated in the profected chart then the transits mean nothing. It's like people blame transiting Mercury or Saturn for things but it isn't them. They're seeing things and really good with jack-hammers. I'm sure something's going on but it ain't Mercury or Saturn.

People should be cringing when Jupiter is transiting the 4th or 7th places because there's nothing good coming of that and if Jupiter is in the wrong signs or out of sect it's even worse.

And the aspects are interpreted different. Transiting trines are not always good. Natal squares usually frustrate or create difficulties but in the right signs they can be good. Transiting squares usually show someone is forced or compelled to do something. In the profection year when the native comes to America you should see a square somewhere since he didn't have a choice, or between the stars signifying the father or mother since they were likely compelled to leave for safety reasons, or political freedom, religious freedom, educational reasons, a better life or financial reasons. Mine shows a square because I was a soldier and got shipped to Iraq and couldn't exactly say no.

Anyway, you can listen to people stuck in the 1980s watching reruns of Tucker's Witch and listening to A Flock of Seagulls because they didn't get the memo or you can get up to speed on current trends in traditional astrology.

 

[DC80]

Cancer Asc started age 0 in Annual Profection, that make age 1 is Leo, so Aries MC line 10th house that marked age 9 Profection, Mars rule it.

Native came to USA at age 9, the Profection Lord of age 9 was Aries, rule by Mars as the Profection Lord that year, natal birth Mars is strong in Scropio.

Native married at age 28, the Profection Lord of age 28 is Scorpio, rule by Mars, and natal birth Mars is in Scropio.

Native have his first son at age 33, guess who the Lord of age 33, it was Aries, so Mars was the Profection Lord, Mars again.

So 3 of the native biggest events happened are ALL were when Mars was the Profection Lord. Sorry, this is NOT a coincident.

I could not agree more.

You can rule out critical periods because Mars and Saturn are in aversion to Fortune, and Fortune is in Libra so that'd be every 30 years.

The year was that most painful year in native life was age 35, that was when his biological father died of Lung Cancer, and also that same year, our toddler died. Mercury was the Profection Lord of age 35

Mercury and Moon are not good in this chart.

I not even sure if Mars it he problem here. I get different answer from different astrologers (and it free reading in AdvancedAstrology sub), one was adamant it Mars that keep save the native in the chart, and one was ADAMANT that it the Fall Capricorn Jupiter keep save the native.

Mars is benefic in this chart. Mars and Jupiter are the only two stars that are dignified. All the others will act weird because they're out of sect or peregrine or both. The trine from Mars is the only thing keeping the Sun from being malefic. Sun's in the wrong sign, wrong place, Venus is in aversion and Jupiter's sextile has a fixed/solid sign between it so that's like getting rejected at the hoop by Michael Jordan.

 

[geminimercury]

@DC80 Thank you Sir DC80 for your explanation on traditional astrology.
I'm not busy, I'm just a house wife who dependent on my husband 100% financially. I was just in and out of the hospital for the whole last week, so I couldn't reply. I want to talk to you, as I learn alot from you. It just I'm a slow learner.

I never want to be an astrologer, let alone charge a penny for reading. I only have ONE reason why I study astrology (must be traditional), is to find answer to this person chart. There are questions about his chart that till today I still not have answer to. And I have a good 2 years study Hellenistic.

I actually went through a phase where I get obsess with the Scorpio Mars in this chart (as it is the most powerful planet), and I keep defend and defend Mars, but now I not sure. Because clearly in 2019 (age 35 Profection year), when BOTH his biological father and biological child died, in the SAME Solar Return year, it clearly Solar Mars trigger it in the Solar Return.

Here let me show you the Solar Return of 2019, maybe you can explain to me, as I still not have an answer to my question.
You see how Solar Return Taurus Mars is in 12th house at 16 deg Opposition his Natal birth Scorpio Stellium where his Scorpio Saturn 16 deg in 5th house exactly at 0 orb? (Solar Return pic below)
EXACT 0 orb Opposition. EXACT. Solar Return Taurus Mars trigger that Natal birth Scorpio Saturn. I even box it for you to see at the end in the aspect table, how do you explain that Mars is a Benefic? That huge red line in bold go across the chart, 12th house of losses Opposition 5th house of children (child died), and Saturn also mean an authority figure too (father die).