Horary a self fulfilling prophecy?

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Oh, fun, another "Defend your astrology to me" thread.
My intention was to ask people who use horary to explain this particular kind of astrology, not defend it.

I'm going to assume honest intentions that you didn't realize how rudely it could be taken that you chose the Horary Technique sub-fourm to ask horary astrologers to prove that their methods or practice are valid
I posted here because this is where people who understand horary can be found, and that's who can answer these questions I have. The instructions at the top say this is the place to post general questions about horary astrology that do not include charts. I'm sorry if you found it offensive. Where else should I have posted?

Right, and if I remember you said when you joined that you had only been studying for about 6 months using Steven Forrest's The Inner Sky as your main source? I'm not being sarcastic, rather when you choose for teachers those who don't acknowledge that astrology existed before the 20th century it isn't surprising that you would not have been exposed to horary...or to profections, or Time Lords, or Almutens, or reception...
Which is exactly why I knew nothing about horary.

It does not. Horary is all about prediction. Then again, all of astrology is about prediction, whether you are casting an interrogation, selecting a time for an event, reading a natal chart (with or without transits) or solar return, or looking at an Aries ingress chart. The whole point is to figure out what is going to happen. Even the modern, evolutionary "everything is based on your free will" astrologers are actually making predictions. They predict that this aspect means ease or difficulty in this area of your life, or your node (or whatever) in this sign and house means your karmic destiny is to learn "x" in this lifetime. Do those "predictions" become self-fullfilling prophecies? Because I for one would love to be lazy and indecisive...there's a prophecy I'd love to self-fulfill...
That's a very good question, and I think that yes, modern astrology can sometimes lead to self-fulfilling prophecies, depending on how people use it. Someone using modern astrology could take, say, certain aspects to the moon or fourth house placements in their child's chart to mean the child will have a difficult relationship with the mother, and if they really go overboard with that idea, it could become a self-fulfilling prophecy. I'd say that's a half-baked perspective on modern astrology, and I like to believe that parents who freak out about their children's astrology charts have the sense not to take it to the level of self-fulfilling prophecy, but theoretically, someone might.

Or, suppose you heard that because you're a Libra, you're supposed to be lazy and indecisive (I'm guessing that's the "prophecy" you're referring to) and took that as an excuse when you felt like being lazy and indecisive. That really doesn't fit with evolutionary astrology, or other modern or traditional astrology either, but people dipping a toe in the astrology waters have certainly been known to do that sort of thing.

Anyhow, as multiple people have already pointed out, most of the posts on these boards are abuses of horary astrology. People going for the half-baked version, or not even that--try almost raw.

Is that what this is all about? Because I told a querent that she would get a job, but that she would end up hating it?
No, actually, I'd been running these questions through my head for a long time and thinking about posting a thread like this for several weeks, just didn't get around to it til now. That response of yours was fresh in my mind, so it was one of the examples I used, but that's not why I posted this thread.

What if your sister, or daughter, became romantically involved with, and married an abuser? Do you suppose there is anything she could do to change the way she acts to make the relationship work? To not get hit, or killed? "If I just shut my mouth, tried harder, maybe he wouldn't do it?" That's the problem with people who think that the entire world can be made better for themselves, or controlled by their actions alone. They forget about all the other people out there, being who they are and exercising their own "free will."
That's not the kind of situation I had in mind when I used the relationship example. I was thinking of an insecure person in a relationship with a perfectly nice other person who comes to the horary board and posts a chart asking if the relationship will last. If they get a no answer, that revs up their insecurity, they think, "My partner's just going to leave me anyway," and that shows up in how they treat their partner--leading to the end of the relationship.

For someone in an abusive relationship, the question should be entirely different. In that case, the only way they can change the quality of the relationship is to flee. Which can be a very risky thing to do, considering that if the partner is violent, leaving brings the greatest risk of being killed. A better question would probably be something like how they can escape and survive.

The point of horary astrology is to avoid situations or circumstances that could potentially harm us, or to find a way around obsticales that are blocking us. To "change the future" if you will. If I knew that you were on a certain flight, and I knew that the plane was going to crash, wouldn't you want me to tell you?
If horary astrology can do that, it's great. Based on the posts on this board, I honestly had no idea it could do that.

And if you didn't get on the plane, and it crashed, would you challenge that somehow I made the crash manifest in reality for casting the chart, or would you just be damned happy you didn't get on the plane?
I don't think self-fulfilling prophecy works that way. Casting a chart that says a plane will crash doesn't make the plane crash, because the person you're casting the chart for (me, in this hypothetical example) doesn't have the power to make a plane crash just by believing it will. If that were true, many planes would have crashed many times over thanks to nervous fliers! However, I potentially could make my boyfriend break up with me if I believe he will, by treating him accordingly (assuming, again, that this is a reasonably sane relationship, not an abusive one!). And I potentially could prevent myself from getting a job that I might have gotten otherwise, by believing it's a lost cause and blowing off the interview.

So you are saying that you are comfortable with turning to Tarot, but not to an astrologer who likely could have told you from the get-go that the landlord was a crook?
I know tarot. I don't know horary astrology, except what I've seen on here. At the time of that apartment search, I didn't even know astrology except for newspaper horoscopes, which I didn't believe. Knowing what I know now about horary, just from this one thread, I probably would be comfortable asking a horary astrologer that kind of question.

Just to be clear, you are challenging/questioning members who practice a specific branch of astrology, in their sub-forum, to justify themselves to you so YOU can decide that it is valid?
I meant valid for me. I didn't mean to say it's not valid for you. I thought I had clarified that I didn't think you guys were wrong for using it. In fact, that you--and I mean you personally, tsmall, as well as several of the other respondents here--do use horary astrology was what made me start thinking there might be something to it after all. I'd seen you say things that I really respected, so thought if you're using horary, maybe it's not just bunk after all. I did wonder about the potential for self-fulfilling prophecy, though, which was why I asked.
 
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That's not the kind of situation I had in mind when I used the relationship example. I was thinking of an insecure person in a relationship with a perfectly nice other person who comes to the horary board and posts a chart asking if the relationship will last. If they get a no answer, that revs up their insecurity, they think, "My partner's just going to leave me anyway," and that shows up in how they treat their partner--leading to the end of the relationship.

I've never seen this happen. I guess if you are that suggestible, you should never listen to anyone about anything.

Many of those kind of relationship horaries will show in the chart that the querent isn't going to listen to you anyway, and we do see a lot of them here.

Seriously, if you're in love with someone, and someone else says that person is going to leave you, are you going to start treating your partner badly? Or would you try to figure out the problem (again, assuming as you do that we have two sane people of goodwill involved) and fix it before he or she does leave?

If people really are that suggestible, then they need more help than an astrologer can give them. It doesn't strike me as a realistic scenario, though.
 
I've never seen this happen. I guess if you are that suggestible, you should never listen to anyone about anything.

Many of those kind of relationship horaries will show in the chart that the querent isn't going to listen to you anyway, and we do see a lot of them here.

Seriously, if you're in love with someone, and someone else says that person is going to leave you, are you going to start treating your partner badly? Or would you try to figure out the problem (again, assuming as you do that we have two sane people of goodwill involved) and fix it before he or she does leave?

If people really are that suggestible, then they need more help than an astrologer can give them. It doesn't strike me as a realistic scenario, though.

I think what got to me there was the phrasing of horary questions that I've been seeing. "Will x happen?" sounds like the answer is supposed to be a set-in-stone prophecy. The way it looked to me, if someone asks if their partner is going to leave them, the chart says yes or no, or maybe gives an unclear answer, and that's supposed to be that--if it's yes, they're leaving no matter what, if it's no, they're staying no matter what. Is that not how it works?
 
There is nothing wrong with asking if an item you want to buy is defective in some way, especially a used item that costs a lot of money.

When you buy a tract of land, you can't see what it looks like the entire year through every change of the seasons. Horary can help with that, showing you if part of the land is a stinking quagmire mosquito breeding ground for most of the summer or not.
Ah... so horary is about gathering information to make a decision!

But then how do yes/no questions about a future outcome not yet determined fit with the decision making process... such as "Will I get this job?" or "Will I marry X?" Are those questions predetermining what will happen, and once they're answered, the answer is supposed to be final and unchangeable? That's what I've understood horary astrology to be.

The issue before you should be something that has been on your mind for several days and is of crucial importance.

That is slightly subjective, so we must view it from the position of the most rational or logical person.
And who is the most rational or logical person? How is that determined?

No. The Stars move fast, but not fast enough to game the system.

However, the moon moves fast, and doesn't the moon's position change the answer? I saw a question on here... I forget exactly what the subject was... where the chart was cast during a full moon, and one horary reader said something along the lines of, we don't get yes answers to this kind of question during full moons because the moon is in opposition with the sun. If the phase of the moon can alter the answer, it's easy enough to wait a few days for the moon to move, say, in or out of full, if you know how that would affect your answer.
 
I think what got to me there was the phrasing of horary questions that I've been seeing. "Will x happen?" sounds like the answer is supposed to be a set-in-stone prophecy. The way it looked to me, if someone asks if their partner is going to leave them, the chart says yes or no, or maybe gives an unclear answer, and that's supposed to be that--if it's yes, they're leaving no matter what, if it's no, they're staying no matter what. Is that not how it works?

I'm going to work backwards on the posts here.

I'm paraphrasing (Bonatti? Ezra? Someone else? I don't feel like sourcing quotes this late at night) but the idea is something along the lines of "What is the branch, and what is the tree? I really think Bonatti...

Anyway. Let's say that someone wants to know if they are going to marry a specific person. The realistic first thing to do would be to look at the natal chart and see if marriage is "in the stars" so to speak, and by marriage using traditional means it could just be a long term relationship that involves living together and sharing assets, since state sanctioned marriage has been socially denied to certain classes of people since time began. But what if you don't have a natal chart to look at? I have several personal friends who were adopted from foreign countries, and even their birth dates are a best guess, let alone getting an accurate time and place...

This is the basis for "rooting" a chart, or finding something to hang a horary or election onto. With elections we want to root the chart to the natal somehow, and if we can't then we want to root the chart to the natural significations of certain planets. With horary, it would be terrific if we could do the same thing, but often we can't, or in the past astrologers couldn't, and so methods were developed to see if the chart was somehow rooted in having the Universe favor the question and the time of asking. And this is a big digression, lol.

Anyway, the entire reason for astrology is to divine the will of the gods, or God, or the Prime Mover, or whatever reason you want to give for the concept of "As Above, So Below" in the first place. There is an awful lot of philosophy that is behind the scenes of why and how astrology works, for both modern and traditional (for the record, I HATE both of those terms), but the basic principle remains the same...how can I discover what supposedly is going to happen, and if it is bad for me find a way to make it better, or to avoid it entirely?

You are not the first person to wonder if we are setting something in stone just by casting the chart...I've had a few sleepless nights over it myself, and Sue Ward wrote a whole article about it (I can look for it if you are interested) but to me it really boils down to...don't ask the question if you are not prepared for the answer.

As far as it being cast in stone, no. I guess you could say it's similar in some (though very few...in fact not at all, except for the point I'm trying to make in this one instance) ways to a Tarot spread, in that horary can show you what will happen if you continue on the path you are currently walking. And often the chart will show you where the "out" is, as in the other direction you should take, or the other thing that you shoud be paying attention to.

The thing is, Osamenor, often the chart shows that regardless of what you say the querent is going to continue on that same path. And it isn't the denials, or no's that are really the problem. Every one is familiar with wishing for something that never happens, even though it hurts every dang time. It's the yes but you will have to work hard for it, or not this but maybe this over here...or even worse, the yes but you will regret it for the rest of your life questions that are the most difficult to get people to pay attention to. It doesn't help that so many people have misunderstood horary and tried to restrict it to yes/no questions, boil it down to applying aspects, void of course Moons, and find reasons to discard a chart.

As far as the phrasing of questions about "will x happen?" Well, it is the job of the astrologer to discover the real intention behind the question. In a consulation, that can be done simply by conversation with the querent to see what is really driving the need to ask. Notice how few "astrologers" here are asking questions before they go blindly into reading a chart? There was a recent thread here in which the querent wanted to know if her boyfriend would be released from prison...and at the end of the day the real question for the astrologer to answer was what would the parole board say...
 
I'm going to work backwards on the posts here.

I'm paraphrasing (Bonatti? Ezra? Someone else? I don't feel like sourcing quotes this late at night) but the idea is something along the lines of "What is the branch, and what is the tree? I really think Bonatti...

Anyway. Let's say that someone wants to know if they are going to marry a specific person. The realistic first thing to do would be to look at the natal chart and see if marriage is "in the stars" so to speak, and by marriage using traditional means it could just be a long term relationship that involves living together and sharing assets, since state sanctioned marriage has been socially denied to certain classes of people since time began. But what if you don't have a natal chart to look at? I have several personal friends who were adopted from foreign countries, and even their birth dates are a best guess, let alone getting an accurate time and place...

This is the basis for "rooting" a chart, or finding something to hang a horary or election onto. With elections we want to root the chart to the natal somehow, and if we can't then we want to root the chart to the natural significations of certain planets. With horary, it would be terrific if we could do the same thing, but often we can't, or in the past astrologers couldn't, and so methods were developed to see if the chart was somehow rooted in having the Universe favor the question and the time of asking. And this is a big digression, lol.

Anyway, the entire reason for astrology is to divine the will of the gods, or God, or the Prime Mover, or whatever reason you want to give for the concept of "As Above, So Below" in the first place. There is an awful lot of philosophy that is behind the scenes of why and how astrology works, for both modern and traditional (for the record, I HATE both of those terms), but the basic principle remains the same...how can I discover what supposedly is going to happen, and if it is bad for me find a way to make it better, or to avoid it entirely?

You are not the first person to wonder if we are setting something in stone just by casting the chart...I've had a few sleepless nights over it myself, and Sue Ward wrote a whole article about it (I can look for it if you are interested) but to me it really boils down to...don't ask the question if you are not prepared for the answer.

As far as it being cast in stone, no. I guess you could say it's similar in some (though very few...in fact not at all, except for the point I'm trying to make in this one instance) ways to a Tarot spread, in that horary can show you what will happen if you continue on the path you are currently walking. And often the chart will show you where the "out" is, as in the other direction you should take, or the other thing that you shoud be paying attention to.

The thing is, Osamenor, often the chart shows that regardless of what you say the querent is going to continue on that same path. And it isn't the denials, or no's that are really the problem. Every one is familiar with wishing for something that never happens, even though it hurts every dang time. It's the yes but you will have to work hard for it, or not this but maybe this over here...or even worse, the yes but you will regret it for the rest of your life questions that are the most difficult to get people to pay attention to. It doesn't help that so many people have misunderstood horary and tried to restrict it to yes/no questions, boil it down to applying aspects, void of course Moons, and find reasons to discard a chart.

As far as the phrasing of questions about "will x happen?" Well, it is the job of the astrologer to discover the real intention behind the question. In a consulation, that can be done simply by conversation with the querent to see what is really driving the need to ask. Notice how few "astrologers" here are asking questions before they go blindly into reading a chart? There was a recent thread here in which the querent wanted to know if her boyfriend would be released from prison...and at the end of the day the real question for the astrologer to answer was what would the parole board say...

Great explanation! And that answers my real question right there. One thing I really like about tarot is that it leaves room for the answer to be changed, and even the answer itself is subjective--I've convinced a few skeptical people that it might be valid after all by explaining that it's similar to Jungian psychology. When I read for people, I ask them what impressions they're getting from a card, then supply the card's "official" meanings if relevant. Sometimes what a particular card image says for one person is different from what it says for another, although it tends to bear some kinship with the official meaning.

I didn't see how horary astrology was like that. It's good to know that it does, in fact, show the outs and other factors.

Oh, and if you have a link to the article you mentioned, I am interested!
 
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Great explanation! And that answers my real question right there. One thing I really like about tarot is that it leaves room for the answer to be changed, and even the answer itself is subjective--

Ok, but something to keep in mind is that astrology isn't subjective, it is objective, or at least it is supposed to be.

I've convinced a few skeptical people that it might be valid after all by explaining that it's similar to Jungian psychology.

Just remember that the only reason I used the Tarot analogy was to give you something you could relate to. Horary is nothing like Jungian psychology, lol. And I've convinced quite a few people that it works by getting charts right. :innocent:


I didn't see how horary astrology was like that. It's good to know that it does, in fact, show the outs and other factors.

It does, but you (or anyone else) isn't going to learn how just by reading articles posted on the internet.

Oh, and if you have a link to the article you mentioned, I am interested!

I actually spent an hour or so looking for it this morning and it seems to have disappeared into a wormhole. However, in an obvious bid to convert you to the dark side, er, to being open to learning traditional astrology, here is an article written in 2010 by my friend Curtis.


http://www.astrology-x-files.com/x-files/evolutionary-astro.html
 
Ok, but something to keep in mind is that astrology isn't subjective, it is objective, or at least it is supposed to be.

Just remember that the only reason I used the Tarot analogy was to give you something you could relate to. Horary is nothing like Jungian psychology, lol. And I've convinced quite a few people that it works by getting charts right. :innocent:
I didn't mean to imply that astrology is like tarot in that way. I just went off on a tangent about tarot. You were very clear that the analogy you were making between horary and tarot only matches in that one particular way.

It does, but you (or anyone else) isn't going to learn how just by reading articles posted on the internet.
Of course not, and I have no intention of trying to learn how that way. If I ever decide to learn how to do horary, I'll look for a real world teacher. But that's in the distant future if it happens at all. I have plenty else on my plate to learn!

I actually spent an hour or so looking for it this morning and it seems to have disappeared into a wormhole. However, in an obvious bid to convert you to the dark side, er, to being open to learning traditional astrology, here is an article written in 2010 by my friend Curtis.
Was the article on her blog? After I made that last post, I did an internet search for Sue Ward and found her blog, and there was a post on there that I read... I don't remember the whole thing, but she said something about how asking the question is the magic that opens one door and closes the others.

Thanks for the other article. I'll print it up so I can read it (I can't read it onscreen because the blocks of text are too long; I have no trouble reading from paper, but I can't read electronic text if it's in a block longer than 6-8 lines).

Thanks to all for your help! :smile:
 
I'm writing from the perspective of a non-horary user here. I didn't even know there was such a thing as horary astrology until I joined this forum about 8 months ago. That said, I've been wondering this for some time: does horary just create a self fulfilling prophecy if a question is asked about an undetermined future outcome, such as, "Will I get this job?" or "Will this relationship last?"

Horary is "prophecy."

The Horary Chart isn't wrong, but the people who read them are.

Understand that not everyone gets to devote the proper amount of time to study the chart. Most people just look at the salient features and make their judgment on that (right or wrong as it may be).

That's sufficient for an uncomplicated Chart, but complicated Charts take a bit more time to study.
 
It must, but there is no rule that says you have to bang your head against every brick wall you run into for years.

Ideally, astrology guides you around some of the rough spots and show you which directions will provide the most happiness.
 
It must, but there is no rule that says you have to bang your head against every brick wall you run into for years.

Ideally, astrology guides you around some of the rough spots and show you which directions will provide the most happiness.

Yes thank you I didn't think anyone saw my post as as i deleted it. I love astrology both the science and art of it I truly do. Just having a hard time now and holding on to faith.

Serafin5
 
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