How does one determine sect?

[JUPITERASC]

JUPITERASC,
here's what MIGHT be the case:

Conversely then
here's what MIGHT NOT be the case:

On a graduated scale
--about 25% of Charts have very fortunate 6th and 12th House placements;
about 25% have very unfortunate 6th and 12th House placements;
and, for the majority 50 % or so, with neither fortunate nor unfortunate as the median,
gradually becoming more fortunate in one direction,
and more unfortunate in the other.

This theory is very interesting

Sounds reasonable, considering all the potential variables.

"sounds reasonable" does not necessarily = reasonable

If this is correct (maybe a Maths-wizard would care to comment),

The topic of this thread is "How does one determine sect?"
and there are traditional guidelines

and Traditional sources universally consider the 6th and 12th as the "worst" of Houses,

Quite

it would appear
that those sources are
those eminent, published Astrologers who drew the short straw in their own Charts;
or happened to end up with a skewed sample;
or simply felt that being at the Horizon-line is automatically, ipso facto, a bad place for a House to be situated.

no evidence for that contention has been provided

And yet, as you say, H12 (which seems to have a worse rep than H6)
CAN possibly work in favor of the native,
depending on the circumstances.

12th House may indeed work in favor of the native
however the consequences could be unfortunate

 

[david starling]

Moving on, which Planets are on "team native" in a day-chart, and which are on it in a night-chart? Thanks!

 

[graay ghost]

Moving on, which Planets are on "team native" in a day-chart, and which are on it in a night-chart?

Day chart: Sun, Jupiter, Saturn, Mercury if it's Promethian

Night chart: Moon, Mars, Venus, Mercury if it's Epimethean

 

[JUPITERASC]

Moving on,
which Planets are on "team native" in a day-chart,
and which are on it in a night-chart?
Thanks!

there's a useful detailed response on this thread to a similar question from Blaze earlier

Looking at it after doing some light reading on sect has made me wonder about Saturn and Jupiter.
Both are strong in my chart, yet, being Diurnal planets in a nocturnal chart....
does this make them out of sect?

tsmall earlier on this thread provided the following succinct summary
which answers the question as to which Planets are on "team native" in a day-chart,
and which are on "team native" in a night-chart

It depends. Like I said, it gets a bit more complicated.
The word "sect" itself comes from the Greek haíresis,
and carries implications of religious thoughts and "us vs. them" ideology.
The word heresy is derived from this, and carries similar meanings.
It gets even more complicated because astrologers after the Greeks conflated "sect" with "domain,"
brought us my little buddies Hayz and Halb, and yeah. Let's see if we can make it easier...

If the Sun is above
or, to me, because the twilight issue is an essential one)
within 5* of the ASC according to diurnal motion,
Sun is sect light and the in-sect planets are Jupiter and Saturn.

We all know that Mercury is tricky,
but if Mercury rises before the Sun he is diurnal,
after he is nocturnal.

if the Sun is more than 5* by diurnal motion below the horizon, the Moon is sect light
and the in-sect planets are Mars and Venus.


The sect light will tell us which planets are on team native,
and which planets are on team "other people doing things to native."

From there we get to hayz and halb.
Because once we determine the sect of the chart as a whole,
we have to figure out how these planets are going to behave.
This is where the ideas of sect got conflated with domain.
Diurnal planets want to be on the same side of the horizon as the Sun, nocturnal planets on the opposite side.
Makes sense? Hayz is when a diurnal planet is above the horizon in a day chart and in a sign that agrees with its gender.
Or if a nocturnal planet is above the horizon in a nighttime chart and in a sign that agrees with its gender.
Halb is simply if a planet is configured on the proper side of the horizon according to sect.

Again, why does this matter? It has to do with with domain,
or more appropriately what is called "similitude."
You can google the etymology and find the biblical/religious references for yourself.

For the purposes of astrology
(note to those who can't understand peregrine planets, here's where we figure it out.)
Planets want to be on the proper side of the horizon according to their sect (haireses)
and in signs, quadrants, even drilling down to degrees that agree with their gender.
In those places, even though the might not have essential dignity, they have similarity,
or are in a place that largely agrees with their nature.
If they are found otherwise, then they must act against their nature,
which puts them at a distinct disadvantage.

 

[tsmall]

JUPITERASC, here's what MIGHT be the case: On a graduated scale--about 25% of Charts have very fortunate 6th and 12th House placements; about 25% have very unfortunate 6th and 12th House placements; and, for the majority 50 % or so, with neither fortunate nor unfortunate as the median, gradually becoming more fortunate in one direction, and more unfortunate in the other. Sounds reasonable, considering all the potential variables. If this is correct (maybe a Maths-wizard would care to comment), and Traditional sources universally consider the 6th and 12th as the "worst" of Houses, it would appear that those sources are those eminent, published Astrologers who drew the short straw in their own Charts; or happened to end up with a skewed sample; or simply felt that being at the Horizon-line is automatically, ipso facto, a bad place for a House to be situated. And yet, as you say, H12 (which seems to have a worse rep than H6) CAN possibly work in favor of the native, depending on the circumstances.

David, I've noticed that you have a propensity for statistics, averages, and seem to want to be able to come up with some sort of mathematical probability for astrology. That is not a criticism; merely an observation. If I am incorrect please feel free to say so. If I am correct, then the only thing I would like to point out is that statistics and averages are all well and good for proposing generalizations, but no matter what "science" is at hand, they break down when applied to individuals. And each chart is representative of an individual, not a mean or average.

Benefics in the dark houses save from the significations of those houses. This actually makes sense when we consider that planets in houses have a more direct impact on the day-to-day of those houses than an absent ruler might. And yes, we do need to look at these on a chart by chart basis, because each chart tells a different story. The story of the life of an individule native.

As astrologers we often fall back on generalizations. This is bad. I mean, it's good to know the generalizations, but bad because it makes us bad astrologers. Learning to "speak" astrology requires learning all of the grammar of the planets, signs, houses, significations, aspects, planetary condition, dignity, debility, bonnefication, strength vs. fortitude...the list is actually quite long.

But if an astrologer takes the time to learn it, the planets will start speaking the story of each native, as an individual, and not as a set of stastics and averages.

 

[david starling]

Tsmall, I'm most concerned with the energy-flow of a Chart, and do consider each one unique. I was attempting to refute the claim that H12 is the worst House in every case, for everyone. Here's an example of the "25% rule", involving the imbibing of alcoholic beverages: About 25% of the population greatly benefits from it; about 25% greatly suffers from it; and, the remainder may benefit or suffer to a varying degree. So, declaring alcohol to be a "poison" that will destroy someone's life, is true for some but not others. I was responding to an absolute statement; namely, that the 6th and 12th are the worst of all the houses. I was just saying that it stands to reason, given the complexities of each individual Chart, that such a statement would apply to some natives and not others, unless there's a logical reason why it would apply to everyone. How about "Saturn is the worst of all Planets in a Chart." Is that true for everyone as well?

 

[JUPITERASC]

Tsmall, I'm most concerned with the energy-flow of a Chart, and do consider each one unique.

I was attempting to refute
the claim that H12 is the worst House in every case, for everyone.

the intent then being:

to attempt to refute
that 12th House is the worst House in every case, for everyone
using the "25% rule"

Here's an example of the "25% rule", involving the imbibing of alcoholic beverages:

About 25% of the population greatly benefits from it;
about 25% greatly suffers from it;
and, the remainder may benefit or suffer to a varying degree.
So, declaring alcohol to be a "poison" that will destroy someone's life, is true for some but not others.

the example of "25% rule" involving the imbibing of alcoholic beverages
is flawed because:
"25% of the population"
is obviousaly a percentage of the population
relevant to 100% of the population

and clearly
a percentage of the total population
do not drink alcohol at all
and as a consequence of not imbibing alcohol at all
therefore are not harmed by alcohol

HOWEVER the caveat is:

UNLESS
for example
a person under the influence of the imbibing of alcohol
drives having imbibed alcohol
and as a consequence destroys the life of a person who does not imbibe alcohol at all
by killing or maiming the person who does not imbibe alcohol at all in a road traffic accident
therefore

The fact that the lives of a percentage of the population

are not destroyed by alcohol
is directly related to
either
not imbibing alcohol at all
or
not being affected by an individual who imbibes alcohol


NOT by the toxic nature of the alcohol itself


by the way
it is common knowledge that
a person who imbibes alcohol may become intoxicated

TOXIC = POISONOUS
Intoxication is defined as:

"the pathological state produced by a drug, serum, alcohol, or any toxic substance; poisoning"

hence

The fact that a percentage of the population do not imbibe alcohol
does not alter the fact that alcohol IS a poison.


BLACKS LAW DICTIONARY
Law Dictionary: What is INTOXICATION? definition of INTOXICATION (Black's Law Dictionary)

The state of being poisoned; the condition produced by the administration
or introduction into the human system of a poison.
But in its popular use this term is restricted to alcoholic intoxication,
that is, drunkenness or inebriety,
or the mental and physical condition induced by drinking excessive quantities of alcoholic liquors,
and this is its meaning as used in statutes, indictments, etc.
See Sapp v. State, 110 Ga. 182, 42 S. E. 410;
State v. Pierce, 05 Iowa, 85, 21 N. W. 195;
Wadsworth v. Dunnam, 98 Ala. 010, 13 South. 590;
Ring v. Ring, 112 Ga. S54, 38 S. E. 330;
State v. Kelley, 47 Vt. 200; Com. v. Whitney, 11 Cush. (Mass.) 477.

I was responding to an absolute statement;
namely, that the 6th and 12th are the worst of all the houses.

I was just saying that it stands to reason, given the complexities of each individual Chart,
that such a statement would apply to only some natives,
unless there's a logical reason why it would apply to everyone.
How about "Saturn is the worst of all Planets"?
Is that true for everyone as well?

the imbibing of alcohol and "the 25% rule" clearly shows
A poisonous substance remains poisonous whether one imbibes it or not

similarly
6th House and 12th House ARE traditionally the worst of all the houses
Q.E.D.

 

[david starling]

There you go-- straight to the 25% who should never drink alcohol. Q.E.D.
It's the old, "If it's bad for some, it's bad for everyone." syndrome. Or, "If it's bad for me, it's bad for thee."--In this case, "If I can't drink alcohol responsibly, you shouldn't be able to either."
It appears there's a League of 12th House haters! Saturn in H12 could be the cause--Saturn rejoicing in wreaking havoc on the Imagination.

 

[JUPITERASC]

There you go-- straight to the 25% who should never drink alcohol. Q.E.D.

there YOU went - not I
i.e.
read my post - I simply stated the fact that
not everyone drinks alcohol
I did not at any time state that "25% should never drink alcohol"
INSTEAD I posted as follows:

"and clearly
a percentage of the total population
do not drink alcohol at all
and as a consequence of not imbibing alcohol at all
therefore are not harmed by alcohol "

i.e.
SOME members of the total population do not drink alcohol at all from choice
nothing weird

similarly
SOME members of the total population do not drink orange juice at all from choice
nothing weird
solely personal preference

It's the old, "If it's bad for some, it's bad for everyone." syndrome.
Or, "If it's bad for me, it's bad for thee."

Quite clearly poison is universally "bad for everyone"
a poisonous snake-bite for example kills everyone indiscriminately
UNLESS an antidote is administered

--In this case, "If I can't drink alcohol responsibly,
you shouldn't be able to either."

Whether or not one "drinks alcohol responsibly"
does not alter the fact that alcohol IS a poison

in fact there are many toxic substances which in moderate quantities
are beneficial
for example nature’s poisons have been used for medicinal purposes for millennia.

Small doses of opium, mandrake, henbane, and hemlock
numbed the pain of surgery for more than 1,000 years.
NEVERTHELESS
that does not mean hemlock for instance is not a poison

small does of alcohol being beneficial
does not negate the poisonous nature of alcohol

It appears there's a League of 12th House haters!

Saturn in H12 could be the cause.

It appears that some misconstrue the reasons for 12th house
being traditionally the worst of the houses

 

[JUPITERASC]

It appears there's a League of 12th House haters!

Saturn in H12 could be the cause--Saturn rejoicing in wreaking havoc on the Imagination.

by "a League of 12th House haters"
one assumes you refer to those who utilise traditional methodology

 

[david starling]

I've been researching it. It has a bad reputatation because Saturn, the greater Malefic, rejoices there. So, if Saturn is weak in regard to H12 in the Chart, it's a safe and inspiring House[IMO] My H12 seems to have come equipped with a Saturn-repeller, as I'm sure is the case in many other Charts as well. Not all Traditionalists over-generalize. I'll reserve opinion until I see what R. Zoller says about it. He also has Aquarian H12 Planets (Sun and Merc.)

 

[JUPITERASC]

I've been researching it.
It has a bad reputatation
because Saturn, the greater Malefic, rejoices there.

12th House is traditionally the worst of the houses
NOT because Saturn the greater Malefic rejoices there
but instead
Saturn the greater Malefic rejoices in 12th house
because
12th house traditional significations include but are not limited to:
imprisonment, loss, despair, betrayal, secret enemies and so on

however
as conspiracy theorist remarked at some stage on one of these threads
it's not 'joy' in the sense of happy fun times.
The joy of planets more speaks to the house where the planet has the most affinity.
and clearly
Saturn has affinitiy with 12th house significations
which include and are not limited to:
sad events, sorrow, anguish of mind
tribulation, captivity, imprisonment, persecution, hard labour,
all manner of affliction and self-undoing.
It represents places that are denied access to public view, particularly those concerned with seclusion or isolation
or where one is restricted from living a carefree life-style, such as institutions or prisons http://www.skyscript.co.uk/temples/h12.html

So, if Saturn is weak in regard to H12 in the Chart,
it's a safe and inspiring House[IMO]

that's not the traditional perspective
12th House is the worst of the houses NOT necessarily due to
Saturns strong or weak condition in a particular natal chart

My H12 seems to have come equipped with a Saturn-repeller
as I'm sure is the case in many other Charts as well.
Not all Traditionalists over-generalize.
I'll reserve opinion until I see what R. Zoller says about it. He also has Aquarian H12 Planets (Sun and Merc.)

describe how your 12th house is "a Saturn-repeller"

 

[david starling]

Saturn's in it's counter-House, H6.

 

[JUPITERASC]

Saturn's in it's counter-House, H6.

so your natal Saturn is in 6th house in opposition to your natal Jupiter in 12th house
and so
since this is a thread specifically focussed on how to determine sect
verification whether your natal chart is a night chart or a day chart is a crucial factor

 

[david starling]

so your natal Saturn is in 6th house in opposition to your natal Jupiter in 12th house
and so
since this is a thread specifically focussed on how to determine sect
verification whether your natal chart is a night chart or a day chart is a crucial factor

Saturn in Leo H6; Jupiter in Scorp.H9; Moon&Venus in Aqua.H12; and, Night-chart.

 

[JUPITERASC]

Saturn in Leo H6; Jupiter in Scorp.H9; Moon&Venus in Aqua.H12; and, Night-chart.

for clarity a chart image would be useful

 

[Oddity]

I'll reserve opinion until I see what R. Zoller says about it. He also has Aquarian H12 Planets (Sun and Merc.)

From Zoller: The twelfth house represents incarceration, serious illness, institutionalisation, hospitalisation, secret enemies, and large animals (those you can ride).

He talked about the Mercury-Saturn opposition in his own chart (the 12-6 planets), and noted that it was responsible for his polio as a child.

He doesn't see 6 and 12 as benefic houses.

But you don't practise traditional astrology, David. So you can see the 12th house any way you like. Amongst traditionalists you're pretty much going to find agreement that the 12th house is a bad house. Modern doesn't see it that way, so do what makes you happy.

 

[graay ghost]

Everyone has rulers of houses 12 and 6. Just because one has no actual planets in houses 12 and 6 doesn't mean that nothing 12-6 related will affect that person...

 

[david starling]

From Zoller: The twelfth house represents incarceration, serious illness, institutionalisation, hospitalisation, secret enemies, and large animals (those you can ride).

He talked about the Mercury-Saturn opposition in his own chart (the 12-6 planets), and noted that it was responsible for his polio as a child.

He doesn't see 6 and 12 as benefic houses.

But you don't practise traditional astrology, David. So you can see the 12th house any way you like. Amongst traditionalists you're pretty much going to find agreement that the 12th house is a bad house. Modern doesn't see it that way, so do what makes you happy.

So, it makes Traditionalists happy to see H12 as an irremedably bad House. Interesting....I'm not sure that's a deal-breaker though. It's really not all about the Houses, and I find the well-ordered complications fascinating.

 

[david starling]

Everyone has rulers of houses 12 and 6. Just because one has no actual planets in houses 12 and 6 doesn't mean that nothing 12-6 related will affect that person...

Graay ghost, are H6 and H12 unoccupied in your Natal-chart? How would Sect affect an empty House?