Is Neptune a Malefic?

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I don't believe Uranus is about lack of disciple. For that I think of Jupiter.

Neptune rules the 12th house. So I can see the connection with monasteries or people who cloister themselves away in religious study or meditation. That's just one form of spirituality.

With Uranus, think of inventors...they are INSPIRED....IN-spired, inwardly or Divinely, in my book. Being true to yourself; living an *authentic* life; humanitarianism, bolts of intuition out of the blue...this is all Uranus. This is Spirituality to me. It's everyday spirituality.

Also want to mention that I have good aspects with Neptune but have a negative view of Neptune for the most part. I'm a Pisces with Mercury in Pisces. My closest (exact) aspect is Neptune trine my Sun. To me, the negative qualities of Neptune (the self-delusion and the over-idealisation causing disillusionment) from what I've noticed, happens more often with people with conjunctions or hard aspects to Neptune to their personal planets or angles, not the soft ones and not necessarily Pisces planets.

Just wondering what you mean by uranus awakening spiritual energy, and what did it do for you?

It's just I have never seen Uranus associated with spirituality in particular..from what I understand of it's influenece, it is associated with originality, technology, solidarity,enterprise, individuality, freedom with rebellousness and lack of discipline being a negative aspect of that planet.

From what I have learned about Neptune it is associated with inspiration, moral receptivity, emotions, imagination and the superior yearnings of the mind to change our condition..on the negative it is associated with illusion, idealism, excess and confusion.

For sure, Neptune is not a good planet for materialism, quite the worst, unless it helps with an artistic or intellectual gift.. for a small few.. But it doesn't lay claim for that. ( doesn't help with finance)

I will still contend that despite it's draw backs, and there are many, but for the hope and magic it offers Neptune second to venus means alot to me.
 
"With Uranus, think of inventors...they are INSPIRED....IN-spired, inwardly or Divinely, in my book. Being true to yourself; living an *authentic* life; humanitarianism, bolts of intuition out of the blue...this is all Uranus. This is Spirituality to me. It's everyday spirituality. " -allie_b

I do agree with the benefical role that Uranus plays as you have described above.

However scientists/artists/musicians who formulate new theories are often using their imagination and intuition which belongs more in the realm of Neptune. Without the theoretical breakthroughts of Isaac Newton and Einstein you wouldn't have the know how to come up with inventions.

The theory of relativity is a prime example of how neptune can be influencial in science. We can see that they are inspired also...

Neptune isn't just about people getting together in monastries. It's also about peace and morality. For me everyday spirituality involves these two qualities, not pretending to be individual or origional and being better or more unique than anyone else.
 
"Not pretending to be an individual" is the same as saying "being true to yourself, living an authentic life" which I wrote. So we're in agreement, just in disagreement as to which planet this idea of Spirituality is ruled by.
 
"this idea of spirituality"

Well, if you think of the word "peace" or "tranquility", and then further morality, justice, honesty, compassion, kindness, doing good to others, charity.. all these are the things I associate with spirituality.

So, when you say this idea of spirituality I can't see how uranus can be involved, Uranus is counter peace and tranquility, it's supposedly about innovation, invention, independance .. in short action.

You know, Neptune might be a lazy illusionary ***:tongue: at times, but you could assocate him more with peace and morality rather than uranus.

But, as you have said, Uranus does touch on the spirituality in terms of ingenuity and invention which comes out of nowhere.. but I would associate this more with genius rather than spirituality
 
I see Neptune more as a "peace at any price" type of energy.

When I think of Uranus, I think of spiritual leaders such as Gandhi or Martin Luther King, Jr. and what they were trying to attain which was quite revolutionary. They knew that evil triumphs when good men do nothing. Revolution can be quite moral.
 
well ghandai was more of a pacificist than a revolutionary.. he believed in passive resistance to the british empire, he believed that you must understand your enemy better than yourself...he was against the use of force, similarily with Martin Luther King...more neptune for me..

Having said that, ghandi's attitude wouldn't have done much to stop the likes of Hitler?..

when I think of Uranus I think of the french revolution, Malcolm X, all the socialist/communist movements of the 20th century, any revolution involving violence... most likely ending in one tyranny being replaced by another.
 
It's funny, but people who have a negative opinion of neptune tend to have little of it in their chart or else badly aspected.

Probabaly gives a greater insight into personality types and opinions rather than the nature of neptune. Some people just don't get neptune and bash it.

Again, the opposite is true for me, I tend to appreciate it's role as I have quite alot of it in my chart with mosty good aspects.

Neptune trine Moon, Neptune conjunction Juipiter, Neptune sextile venus and neptune sextile pluto
You can't use that excuse of claiming all people who dislike Neptune have a badly located one to negate their opinions, and just what is a "good placement" of Neptune by your logic anyway? Or is it just if Neptune or Pisces are located in a way that suggests that they'll succumb to it easier? If someone is a very proud, violent gang leader type person and they decide they're supporters of Mars that they have a better understanding or placement of Mars then someone who might disagree with what they do and think?

If someone becomes addicted to drugs and just floats aimlessly through life barely capable of discerning reality from their imaginations and drugs highs or becomes a professional scammer, in either case feeling 'happy' about their lives, does this mean that because they feel happy they have a good Neptune? What about someone with a dominant Saturn who become bitter and cynical about everything, is that a better opinion of Saturn.

My point is that rather than playing "mine is bigger (in dignity) than yours!" let's just stick to the facts and experiences please. ;) Actually I think people who have very good opinions of Neptune are usually themselves a bit unlearned in Neptune astrologically, or worse, of a naive nature.

Anyway, yeah, I'd definitely call Neptune malefic. If we define a malefic as a planet that's 'hard to deal with and/or does more harm than good and/or has destructive intent' than Neptune definitely fits this description. It confuses the truth with vagueness, lies, distortion, uncertainty and even just totally ignoring the obvious and often will just leave you to figure the truth out for yourself or makes you jump to conclusions; it will ALWAYS capitalize on gullibility. It connives, manipulates and ultimately steals. It destroys health with sloth, fatigue, intoxication and psychosis (including anxiety, depression and addictive and delusional disorders). It doesn't do these things to help or to make you "understand that you don't need your truth or property" or for any spiritual purpose; it does it because the people it does these things to are too dumb to know any better and Neptune has no problem doing these things as long as it doesn't foresee consequences for them. Neptune is bad to the bone. :innocent: :devil: I also suspect that Neptune is the planet that rules rumors.

It's only redeeming quality is that it's the ultimate "feel good" planet, but the things it makes you trust in, idealize, fascinate over and give of yourself usually don't pan out or is a total waste of energy or it focuses on things (good and bad) that it'll never be able prove one way or another.

There was an episode of The Jefferson's where Florence left a minister she was going on a trip with with some furniture or money on the sidewalk, went upstairs to say goodbye and before setting foot out the door found out the man of the church she always believed in had stolen everything and left! This is similar to a function of Neptune; the swindler and the disillusioned, 2 common Neptune roles -- her faith, trust and purity were not mutual. In this new Age of Aquarius we're supposed to be going into, it seems it's becoming easier to see through religious hypocrisy and the harm and impracticality of religion, especially when exclusive from reason, so I think this is something we all can relate to. Later she has a vision of the pastor (or a hallucination) and it restores her faith by reminding her that her faith is in God, not humans; also Neptune because the focus is again moved away from the concrete to the intangible.

Neptune is like when you'd believe in Santa Clause (oh! gotta be in asleep or he won't come! You'll never see him, but magically he'll travel to billions of homes!) and fear of the dark (oh no! What's that! I better not go to sleep or the monsters might get me!) it uses your feelings to bypass your reason and make you BELIEVE.

It can be fairly good at its moments, in theory Neptune in synestry positively placed could indicate where people can work together for the sake of the ideal of the partnership or the partner, or use that ideal positively for the both of them, or perhaps where it can actually be excusable to overlook specific details of the partner (these are mostly just guesses, I haven't practiced a lot of synastry).

Neptune seems pretty barren, maybe the fruitfulness of Pisces ought to be reconsidered or attributed to Venus as exaltation. I know Jupiter's fruitful also (yet, Sagittarius is usually considered barren..? Is the logic behind that that Sagittarius doesn't want to be tied down tending the fruits of luck and labor? because it's a cold Autumn sign, a fire sign?), but I have a hard time accepting Jupiter as ruler of Pisces, even for the thousands of years of use, though I still check all of them when evaluating Pisces in a chart.

Despite the faults of neptune, I don't think their is another planet that can claim to be the bringer of inspiration, hope and peace.
Hello! :jupiter::venus: maybe even :uranus:

Like everything in life and every planet in Astrology, Neptune has its goods and bads, too. So does Jupiter, the great benefic could propel cancerous 'growth' in the body like nobody's business on the downside.

I have Neptune in the 4th house of home and family, and, I have a very compassionate and kind family; and no, there is nothing hidden or foggy about it. Each one of us is also spiritual in some way or the other. Parents are and grandparents were always involved in some kind of social care and/or community betterment projects, even if only on the side (besides their main job/business. Just some examples, and my thoughts and experiences.

:)aquarius7000
Actually I think Valens attributed cancers to Saturn; if I'm wrong I'll take it back.

My father has Neptune in 4th and he's also idealizing his mother and his childhood. He'll describe coming home to the door open (like someone had broken in, 'cause we're talking Brooklyn c. 1960s and '70s), the roaches and rats, the drugs and violence and he STILL wishes he could be a little boy under his mommy's care! He obsessed with only the good that he likes to focus on.
 
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I'm one of the ones (perhaps) "bashing" Neptune. If you looked at my chart you would see a very well aspected Neptune however (closest aspect in my chart is an exact trine from Neptune to my Pisces Sun).

I also have Neptune sextile Pluto as someone else mentioned they had. But as this aspect lasts for many, many years, it's really considered generational and although has an effect in one's chart, I don't think of it as a personal aspect.

I do have Neptune sextile Jupiter, Uranus and my Asc...so no harsh aspects to it.

My point is: there is no correlation between "liking" Neptune and having "good" aspects to it in your chart.

I've founded my opinion on Neptune based on what I have observed from just knowing people and knowing Neptune in their charts, as well as Neptune transits I've experienced myself personally. I've studied astrology for nearly twenty years now.

Of course there is a higher octave of Neptune and it has its good side, etc., but I think that in the actual real world it is rarely expressed that way.
 
Pallas-Trine-Mars, you are right. What I should have said is that people who dislike Neptune are people who have different values.

People who value innovation, independence, genius, impusles, revolution would be more in favour of Uranus.

People who bash Neptune just don't get the spiritual qualities that it stands for. Neptune unlike Uranus is the planet of imagination, fantasy, theory, intuition, specualtion,,, and most importantly moral values such as peace and inner beauty.

Drug addiction and delusion is the negative aspect of Neptune. However all the planets have their negative aspects. Uranus can be seen as a trouble maker, revolutionary.. in fact the negative aspect of Uranus is the most malacious of all the negative attributes of the planets.. at it's worst it totally defies the laws of nature.. goes against nature. You do know the story of the incestious affair between Uranus and mother earth?

So, at it's worse, Uranus is the symbol of the "sickness" in humanity, mentally and phyically.

I think your comments about Neptune being barren are unfair.

Neptune is quite the opposite. It is the planet of the "higher" mind, of inspiration. Sure this can lead to delusion or addiction. However without Neptunian influence the scientific theories of Aristotle, Newton and Einstein would never have been born. These theorists used their imagination and intuition to formulate the laws of physic and maths.

For example, Einstein came up with his theory of relativity by imagining himself riding on top of a beam of light and looking across at an adjacent beam. Paul Dirac ( nobel laurette) destribes relativity as they most important break through in the history of physics. These break throughs are the result of imagination....... all clearly attributes of the positive aspect of Neptune.

The inventions of Edison and Tesla would not have been possible without the theory allowing them to work.

Finally, it's better to be depressed and know whats going on (Neptune), than happy but dead inside ( Uranus) :tongue:
 
I want to jump in into this heated discussion and share my experience with Neptune. I feel it is a spiritual planet in a sense that it brings one to let go of false believes, defenses and become more truthful, and in touch with reality. No question that Neptune may bring experiences of disillusionment, deception, escapism (but wouldn't that be up to the individual HOW he or she responds to the Neptunian influence?) Pallas-Trine-Mars do you believe we are some sort of marionettes pulled by the strings by the planets?!
BTW, i have difficult aspects of Neptune in my chart to almost everything and I love this planet although my experiences with it had been most painful. Having my most cherished ideals and hopes crushed, not getting support of validation which I was looking for made me ... freer, and truer to myself in the end. I saw after the agony was over that I was deceiving myself or turning the blind eye to the obvious as a defense mechanism, and that I was trying to grasp something from the outside which I believed was not inside of me.

No planet is "bad to the bone," in fact I think planets are impartial as their are celestial bodies and their impacts on us is the one where the receiver plays an important role as well. All the "negative" manifistations are karma of one's own making so no planet is to be blamed for something.
 
Neptune can have a negative side to it.

Religious fundamentalists often have hard aspects involving Neptune.

Tim LeHaye, a Christian Fundamentalist, has these following aspects in his chart:

Mars Conjunction Jupiter
Mars Opposition Neptune
Jupiter Opposition Neptune

Saturn squares the Mars-Jupiter Neptune opposition here forming two T-Squares.

Also, he has Mercury Square Pluto. Pluto can also be involved with religious fanaticism as Pluto, when in hard aspect, can be controlling and obsessive.

Jupiter and Pluto can be involved in religious fanaticism as well as shown above. John Calvin, another religious fanatic back in the 1500's, had a Jupiter-Pluto conjunction in the 9th House. Pluto squared Saturn from there.

Here are a couple pages on Tim LeHaye.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_LaHaye
End of the world predictions of Religious Fanatics - Dangers
http://thinkers.net/forum/showthread.php?t=72
 

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What I once read that was interesting was that Uranus and Neptune sort of both look at the same thing but differently. Similarly like how Aquarius and Pisces both look for things on a large global scale and can share many of the same theoretical or artistic ideals, but Aquarius looks through a mental intellectual emotionally detached frame of reference and Pisces sees with its emotional imaginative frame of reference.

Also like I said before neptune is about having faith in a higher power (thats what is written in about 2 books I have seen) and is about imagination and mabie visualization (like what green mist said about einstein?? and if you have looked at the secret DVD they talk about the power of visualization).

I don't think there is such a thing as "reality".

Thats very interesting and reminds me of a CD I was listening to on my comp. It was bill harris talking about what he called our "internal map of reality" what he meant is that we have certain expectation or generalization of certain situations or circumstances. For example we have a generalization for how to open a door, or tie our shoe laces so we dont always have to relearn those basic things. For example if someone says "Im not a millionare!" because they think that their poor and they dont want to help someone out financially, they are creating their internal map of reality and it includes the generalization that they are not a millionare.
 
In my opinion: Depending on condition, any planet can be a Malefic or a Benefic.

Since Neptune doesn't participate in the Essential Dignity scheme, one must determine its nature in each chart on in-mundo placement and aspects formed.

On the whole, however, I think most people tend to experience Neptune's action and movement as Malefic.
 
Neptune can be either or, to Frank

Frank,

You said:
In my opinion: Depending on condition, any planet can be a Malefic or a Benefic...On the whole, however, I think most people tend to experience Neptune's action and movement as Malefic.

These are two completely different statements and the closing statement goes completely against what everyone on this thread has been saying. I think this thread indicates that MOST people tend to experience Neptune as malefic OR benefic, depending on their situation (exactly as you stated at the beginning) and many do NOT agree that it is Malefic in nature. It all has to do on how the person perceives what Neptune's "dissolving effect" is. If, to them, "dissolving" the boundaries between us and everything is all confusion delusion and drug use, then that's how they see it. If, to them, it's"dissolving" the boundaries between us and everything is spirituality and one-ness with the universe, then that's how they see it.

Confused by your conclusion,

Tim
 
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On the whole, however, I think most people tend to experience Neptune's action and movement as Malefic.

This sentence was inprecisely worded. What I meant to write was:

"I think a majority of people tend to experience Neptune's action or movement as Malefic."

To elaborate - I think a well-integrated, well-aspected Neptune in natal chart can be experienced as Benefic. Neptune in a difficult postition can act as a Malefic.

Transiting or Directed Neptune tends to be experienced as difficult.

In a horary - or event chart that reaches for precision and solid results - I treat Neptune as a totally Malefic body.
 
I agree with you my own flesh and blood son has Sun conjunct Nep and he is a Jesus FANATIC..He may or may not grow out of it.

I am going to activate my Aries North Node right now and I may inflame some (Sorry)

But in my Opinion Many aspects to the New Age Movement show Neptune in a dark light ..There are Many false channelers .There is much muck and Misinformation and ALOT of the poor New agers are really, really gullible..
The Secret is a big piece of information that is both right and wrong ..I agree what you focus on expands and if you focus on good things you experience more
What I disagree with that particular message is that there is ALOT of weeding out of your unconscious/subconcious ALL the unhealthy beliefs that form this particular and past realities...
Blame this diatribe on my Pluto :devil:
I hope I phrased that correctly...
LOL I attached My Neptune it is both Happy and Sad
~Carrie
 

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With my current Neptune transits, I find that I'm a lot less confrontationally honest. For example on websites, I might start to reply to someone then think "Hmmm, I wonder how they'll take that" and then talk myself out of bothering to post. So talking face-to-face with real people is just as bad.

Under any other circumstances I'd probably classify the story of my year as my dreams coming true. Yet I don't feel happy about that. It's probably the transits of Jupiter in the same position as Neptune because a lot of my dissatisfaction tends to be in the fact that I see what I haven't got; in classic Jupiter terms a belief that the grass can be greener.

But back in terms of Neptune, I've also become terribly absent minded and unfocused this year. I'm just not sharp in mind or tongue. I'm finding that I've got a real lack of passion for anything much these days.
 
I find that Neptune has a really big influence on me. It's pretty prominant in my chart mostly with positive aspects though I have neptune square jupiter and neptune square midheaven. Neptune is in my first house under Saggitarius. I'm a dreamer, idealistic, intuitive. Sometimes I feel like I have a foggy outward view of things, but that's why I fall back on my intuition so much. Meditation, etc help me feel grounded and able to see things clearly. I can fall into traps of not seeing things for what they really are especially people, and so I have to work hard at that. I find that I suck people in pretty easily, though. I feel like there's a balance that needs to be reached. I think it's ok to be in tune with things, feel things deeply and be intuitive as long as it's not crossing into anything negative. I haven't really had an escapist issues with drugs or alcohol since I have an aversion to both, but I have had escapism when it comes to reading or writing. I have a huge imagination and I enjoy fiction writing so sometimes I use that neptune energy for that. edit: I think it has its good and bad parts, being neither totally good or totally bad. I think, though, that the bad influences can be really bad though.
 
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Humm, I think Neptune is as much as a malefic as Jupiter and as much as a benefic as Saturn :devil:

Neptune is part of the alcohol or drug abuser, who'd much rather wake up with a hangover then to face life without the help of the high state of illusion the substance gives. It's in the victim who hands power to the other bcos they do not wish to be responsible for themselves. Neptune also is in the liar, who resorts to shady, irresponsible, imoral acts to get what they want. It's in the mentally disturbed by invisible voices and hallucinations. In the sick patient whose hope is fading. In the confused by insecurity, uncertainty and who can only see "fog" when they look into the future. Neptune is part of the very used and abused gullible saint.

Neptune is also part of the former drug addict now caretaker who helps others in rehab pass through their bad moments, the exact bad moments they went through or even didn't went through as some ppl with strong Neptune have aversion to drugs and alcohol. Neptune is in the savior who takes responsibilty FOR others, and if that means being scapegoat and martyr yep, thats fine for them. Cause they can take it. Neptune is part of the person who can never quite get anywhere, but instead of giving up or resorting to imoral acts, they continue the same way, kind of like gracefully declining the fight. Neptune is part of psychiatrists and nurses or the doctors, who with sensibility can let the distressed patient have some rest. It's in those who for their reasons accept life as uncertain and slowly but surely get to the other side of the fog. Neptune is also part of the manipulative and cunning sinner.

So to me, Neptune rules both saint and sinner. Illusion and illumination. Music and silence. Drunk and sober. It rules paradoxes. :lol:

If the god Neptune was that nice, he wouldn't be represented with a trident and if he really was that bad no one in right mind would sail the sea. When I think a Neptune ruled person, I totally get reminded of a song by Meredith Brooks, forgot the name now.
 
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