Marie Antoinette, Queen of France -- Life and Death

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Zuben Elgenubi - aka the Southern Claw :)
- from an Arabic phrase that means “the southern claw.”
At the time the name was bestowed
the star represented the southern claw of Scorpius.
Later skywatchers created LIBRA from Zubenelgenubi

and several other stars of the scorpion
i.e.

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Minor progressed aspects ...provide reinforcement, qualification, and timing to heavier aspects.
It is interesting to note that the Minor progressed aspects in this case, while providing reinforcement to the Secondary/Major aspects, also reinforce Tertiary aspects that are themselves reinforcing Major aspects.
They are therefore reinforcing reinforcing aspects.
 
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To quote Wiki (which we all know is the ultimate authority on everything in this sublunary world)
"Qu'ils mangent de la brioche"
"Although the phrase is conventionally attributed to Marie Antoinette, it can actually be traced back to Jean-Jacques Rousseau's Confessions in 1765, 24 years prior to the French Revolution, and when Antoinette was nine years old and had never been to France. "
Brioche is a kind of bread or pastry, actually; but it has a lot of eggs and butter in it, which would have been expensive for poor peasants. If they raised those things on a farm, they would probably sell them, rather than eat them at home. Same point though.

Historically or horoscopically, MA doesn't come across as a sensitive or clued-in person. Which didn't help her as the French Revolution gathered momentum.
 
Say what one will about Marie, there is still the grand trine of the Sun, Venus, Mars and Uranus. Especially the Sun/Venus to Uranus should have given her a certain amount of sensitivity and idealism.
I realize the biography I'm reading, Marie Antoinette by Stefan Zweig, is very sympathetic, even apologist, toward her. There is however no getting around the fact she believed 100% in the divine right of kings, and would've done anything possible to thwart the Republic, and did what she could to do so.
Which, as someone posted above, is why we have democracies organized under constitutions. But let's avoid the rabbit hole of lawless autocratic despots despoiling and tyrannizing their countries.
I'm trying mostly to stay neutral about Marie as an individual. What I'm trying to do with this analysis, in a nutshell, is to demonstrate

“Though the mills of God grind slowly, yet they grind exceeding small" ― Friedrich von Logau

If these wheels of progressions can't be considered the mills of the gods, I don't know what would. Like wheels inside wheels, they are steadily grinding down to days and hours.
 
FraterAC, you wrote:

"It might be important to make the point that what we are doing here is attempting to discover how a unitary, fractal Cosmos, inseparable from mind and intelligence, informs our human experience, NOT to make up ways to pretend to tell people’s fortunes at cocktail parties."

Wow. This is the topic for a whole other thread. But it reminds me of the kind of biology (natural history) practiced in Marie Antoinette's day. Naturalists would say that they weren't questioning the Christian version of the Creator God, as laid down by their faith. They just wanted to explore and explain how God went about it.

But I really question whether it's possible to find a "one size fits all" explanation of a death moment. I am not saying you are doing that here. I am saying that end-of-life experiences are so different for different people. Person A dies at age 90, heavily medicated for pain control, in the palliative care section of a hospital. Person B dies at age 2, of an uncured childhood disease. Person C dies at age 43 in a car crash. Death in childbirth used to be common, and it is gendered, in a way that a male soldier dying from a bullet is mostly gendered today.

Why should we think of death moments as having any more explanations or similarities than birth moments?

What I think you can do is to find a lot of astrological correlates with the death moment of one individual. But I wouldn't expect them to work for anyone else; at least not for people dying at different ages of different causes. Maybe you don't either.
 
Death is one manifestation, and it's an easy target, as I've described before, because it's unequivocal, highly significant, involuntary and definitely fixed at a point in time.
The idea is to try to identify the influences going into any manifestation. I could be doing the birth of one's first child, or marriage, or first contact with a life partner, or any of a number of other major events in a person's life. I seem to have happened onto transition (death) at this point. One could probably (or should I say, for sure?) look into my own chart and see why.
I hope to be able to analyze other events in Marie's life as well.
I really do not care about predicting death itself. If I could with 100% certainty I never would, for myself or anyone else. What good would it do?
For that matter, I don't care much about predicting anything else either, unless it's something positive that could encourage someone. I've had a few occasions in which I have been able to do that, here and elsewhere.
It looks to me as if everything in this sublunary world (this time I'm not being facetious) is permeated by astrological (or astral or cosmic) influences. Any event one actually drills into. Anything! I see that in something as apparently trivial and ephemeral as calling one's lover on the phone.
That is what all this is about trying to understand.
 
Got it, FraterAC, but what if the influences are all different? We could take a cross-section of people and look at their other major life events, like marriage, first child, and so on, but what if the search for common influences proves illusory?

Part of the problem is that Big Events are often expressions of individuality. Is the birth of a child a joyful occasion, or a dreadful feeling of overwhelming responsibility? Is death terrifyingly sudden and premature? Or is it a blessed relief from an old age fraught with suffering? Depending on the individual experience, we wouldn't expect identical influences (and maybe this isn't what you're saying.)

Then if we take, for the sake of debate, your point that everything "is permeated by astrological . . . influences," might these be stronger or weaker in some individuals than in others?

(Noting that each chart is unique, with thousands of data points,)

I don't mean to get too woo-woo here, but what if souls choose a certain mission in life, just prior to incarnation; as well as the moment and place of birth most conducive to carrying out that mission? For sure, we'd find astrological correlates with their Big Life Events, but if the missions are different, and the lives are very different, then why should we expect to find commonalities?
 
what if the influences are all different?
Well, commonalities are what we're looking for. Are there constants?
Just to take transition as an example, are the 8th house and the Ascendant (death of the body) constants? Are Saturn and Pluto constants? Are Jupiter and Neptune (liberation and expansion of consciousness) constants?
Yes there can be endless permutations of factors involved. What signs, what aspects (harmonious or hard), and yes, the timing.
Of the three cases I've touched on here (Jayne Mansfield, Sharon Tate and Marie Antoinette -- granted, hardly a definitive sample) are there constants? Does one technique of depicting operative celestial influences work better than others?
I'm not maintaining these are anything but open questions.
what if souls choose a certain mission in life
What if the matrix IS the mission?
Would a soul pick a matrix incompatible with their mission?
 
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Marie Antoinette, Queen Consort
Birthname Maria Antonia Anna Josepha Joanna
NATAL RODDEN RATING A
Data as quoted by the person, kin, friend, or associate.
These data all from someone's memory, family legend, or hearsay :)


8RA5c64N88wR.jpg


TROPICAL SCORPIO SUN

The image of the Scorpion is feminine, nocturnal

Domicile of Mars, depression of Moon
&
Depending on the placement of the houseruler :)
those born under the influence of Scorpio are turbulent, competitive
delicate voice


horoscope-chart5__radix_2-11-1755_17-00.png

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My source is Halloran's AstroDeluxe. It says, "FamilyRecords/AA."
Plus, note the angles and all the aspects to them in these progressions.
I'm going with the data I put up, unless someone wants to do a full rectification with multiple life events demonstrating something different.
Any takers?
 
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Marie Antoinette, Queen Consort
Birthname: Maria Antonia Anna Josepha Joanna


NATAL RODDEN RATING A
Data as quoted by the person, kin, friend, or associate.
These data all from someone's memory, family legend, or hearsay :)

LIBRA MOON
The image of the Scales is masculine, diurnal

Domicile of Venus, exaltation of Saturn, depression of Sun

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horoscope-chart5__radix_2-11-1755_17-00.png
 
Well, commonalities are what we're looking for. Are there constants?
Just to take transition as an example, are the 8th house and the Ascendant (death of the body) constants? Are Saturn and Pluto constants? Are Jupiter and Neptune (liberation and expansion of consciousness) constants?
Yes there can be endless permutations of factors involved. What signs, what aspects (harmonious or hard), and yes, the timing.
Of the three cases I've touched on here (Jayne Mansfield, Sharon Tate and Marie Antoinette -- granted, hardly a definitive sample) are there constants? Does one technique of depicting operative celestial influences work better than others?
I'm not maintaining these are anything but open questions.

What if the matrix IS the mission?
Would a soul pick a matrix incompatible with their mission?
What does "matrix" mean to you in this context?

I get the wisdom in your starting with a few women to focus on, in-depth. However,....

To put (what I see as) your project in perspective, we should move on to a big sample of research subjects. We might give each natal chart a couple thousand data points, some weighted more than others. These are the independent variables. Then we would be looking at even more data points with various prognosticative methods. To put it statistically, this is one big data set. Then I think you'd need some kind of multivariate statistical method to analyze all of this. You'd be looking for correlations that are significant beyond random chance (which the computer works out for you.)

Which is probably why the small statistical tests conducted so far haven't been wildly successful. The Gauquelins deserve a lot of credit for their innovative work; but it is fraught with methodological problems, as well (like rounded birth times.) Sadly, I don't think most astrologers have the background to do this kind of research; and then most statisticians and computer programmers don't have the astrological background.

David Cochrane has done some interesting work with large data sets, but I find his methods to be really problematical.

On the Rodden "A" rating, I think it's probably fine. Royal births like Louis XVI would have been closely timed. In France, civil birth records had to await Napoleon Bonaparte's reforms. And then, they were generally timed to the nearest hour, not to the minute. I found this out once, in looking for commonalities in the birth charts of French-born painters. I checked out Austria, where they didn't begin until 1939 under the Nazi regime.

However, because Marie Antoinette was such a public figure, it should be possible to put her chart through some basic rectification methods, and see if the timing is accurate.

Part of the reason why I don't think your project will be such an easy process is that the births of one's children are standard rectification data points.

I had two children with natural childbirth methods, so no invasive medical intervention. Also, in Placidus, I have Mercury, Venus, and sun in my 5th house of children. Both babies were wanted and loved. Their birth moments have different signatures in my chart.

Within 1 degree of orb, My daughter's sun conjuncts my ascendant. Her Venus opposes my sun. Her Jupiter-Uranus sextile my Mercury-Venus. Her Neptune conjuncts my IC. Sticking to a 1-degree orb, I'm not seeing anything similar when my sun was born his NN (true) conjuncts my ascendant. His Pluto conjuncts my Neptune, but that would encompass a lot of people. My sun's solar arc moon conjuncts my Saturn at a bit over one degree. His Jupiter is in my 5th house, but no direct hits. Not much with secondary progressions. My progressed moon hits his Saturn.

There may be something somewhere to my 5th house, but it's not obvious with the most basic of prognostication methods.

I could go on like this, but obviously, part of the issue might be the ever-changing sky. (Not stepping in the same river twice.) My children are very different people, not only because of different genders. My experiences of raising them were very different.

I think the answers lie elsewhere. Like in the mind of the astrologer.
 
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Marie Antoinette, Queen Consort
Birthname: Maria Antonia Anna Josepha Joanna

NATAL RODDEN RATING A
Data as quoted by the person, kin, friend, or associate.

These data all from someone's memory, family legend, or hearsay :)


ASCENDANT RULER VENUS COMBUST :)
ASSEMBLED WITH SUN HOUSE 7 OPPOSING ASCENDANT
horoscope-chart5__radix_2-11-1755_17-00.png
 
What does "matrix" mean to you in this context?
Essentially what we are calling a horoscope.
I'm interested in what David Cochrane is doing in terms of research, although I don't agree with everything he's done. He is for sure using real research protocols. But we can also consider the Church of Light has been compiling charts, including extensive progression studies and rectifications, on all their members for a hundred years or so now. Obviously the paltry few charts I've done do not qualify as research in any true meaning of the word (cue the trolls here to jump on that statement!). But I think I can demonstrate that some of these much overlooked and misused tools can work, as well as how they can be employed, to anyone who is interested.
As to your son's chart have you checked contacts with your antiscia?
As far as astrology being divination, the I Ching is on a higher level, and it and Tarot cards are both much easier and straightforward to use (I've used Geomantic divination, but it is its own ball of wax; read tea leaves too). And with just a bit of training none of these tools are necessary anyway.
All of these "tantalizing coincidences" persuade me astrology is not just the product of human subjectivity. It couldn't time the dialing of a telephone within seconds, by someone who knew nothing of astrology, if it were.
 
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Marie Antoinette, Queen Consort :)
Birthname: Maria Antonia Anna Josepha Joanna


NATAL RODDEN RATING A
Data as quoted by the person, kin, friend, or associate.
These data all from someone's memory, family legend, or hearsay :)

NATAL SCORPIO SUN RULER MARS IN EXILE IN CANCER :)
& SQUARES NATAL LIBRA MOON
horoscope-chart5__radix_2-11-1755_17-00.png
 
Essentially what we are calling a horoscope.
I'm interested in what David Cochrane is doing in terms of research, although I don't agree with everything he's done. He is for sure using real research protocols. But we can also consider the Church of Light has been compiling charts, including extensive progression studies and rectifications, on all their members for a hundred years or so now. Obviously the paltry few charts I've done do not qualify as research in any true meaning of the word (cue the trolls here to jump on that statement!). But I think I can demonstrate that some of these much overlooked and misused tools can work, as well as how they can be employed, to anyone who is interested.
As to your son's chart have you checked contacts with your antiscia?
As far as astrology being divination, the I Ching is on a higher level, and it and Tarot cards are both much easier and straightforward to use (I've used Geomantic divination, but it is its own ball of wax; read tea leaves too). And with just a bit of training none of these tools are necessary anyway.
All of these "tantalizing coincidences" persuade me astrology is not just the product of human subjectivity. It couldn't time the dialing of a telephone within seconds, by someone who knew nothing of astrology, if it were.
I hadn't looked at antiscia for my son's birth, as I haven't had much luck with them in the past. But I can take a look.

I have trouble with Cochrane's methodology; but that's a topic for another thread, perhaps.

FraterAC, I suspect that you are highly intuitive, if not gifted with second sight/sixth sense. Australian astrologer Alice Portman has tied this ability to planets in septile relationship with the vertex. I think the conjunction works, too. Maybe a factor in your chart.

Which is why a lot of my interest in "why astrology works, if it does" centers on the astrologer's own capabilities, and on the horoscope as a graphic means of communication.

Then there's the life of the native. It's not just "up in the sky" planets pinging on the native's planets. The native may have incarnated with a particular mission; which if it can be understood, may help us to make more sense of her life events; including an execution. (Many variables cannot be read directly off a "blind" horoscope, including gender and ethnicity.)

One book I found eye-opening in this regard is the Gnostic Gospel of Judas, which completely turns on its head the standard interpretation of Judas as Jesus' betrayer. In the canonical gospels, Jesus is portrayed as actively fulfilling Old Testament prophecies. One of which required an untimely, disgraced death. In that context, Judas made a supreme sacrifice under Jesus' direction, knowing what the reverberations would be for both him and his master. (One translation is https://scriptural-truth.com/PDF_Apocrypha/The Gospel of Judas.pdf )

Similarly, in turning the standard narrative of Marie "let them eat brioche" Antoinette on its head, what if she were metaphysically a courageous old soul who incarnated precisely to drive the bloated and senescent French aristocracy over the brink, whereby the French Revolution -- despite its Reign of Terror and Napoleonic repercussions -- were necessary precursors to a modern French democracy?

Too fanciful to entertain, I get it. But then, hey, we are talking astrology here, after all.
 
not gifted with second sight/sixth sense
Not so gifted. I've known some "naturals" but I am by no means one.
not just "up in the sky" planets pinging on the native's planets. The native may have incarnated with a particular mission
This is absolutely what I think. And that the horoscope of the native and the point in the ongoing flow of "the planets in their courses" (I think the Immortal Bard said something like that) must be the framework in which that mission is played out.
One wrote that karma and/or (re)incarnation is always purposive, meaning, driven by a desire. Not like, "I have a desire for a big house" but like, "I have a desire to create or manifest something beautiful."
Marie absolutely may have incarnated knowing (on an inner level) the role in the drama of human and French history that incarnation was to play; I believe she did. Not too fanciful. Certainly she went to the guillotine calmly and with dignity. And certainly she had to be demonized; and maybe not too surprisingly, in the same way individuals have been demonized throughout history, and right into today's turgid social discourse: Traitor! Sinner! Corrupt! Child molester! (stop me if you've heard this...).
So as astrologers I think one of the things we can aspire to is to try to read that character and that destiny, in the horoscope, in those progressions (etc). And observe with wonder how the echoes of analogous cycles cascade in a fractal way down through those progressions (& etc).
 
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Marie Antoinette, Queen Consort :)
Birthname: Maria Antonia Anna Josepha Joanna


NATAL RODDEN RATING A
Data as quoted by the person, kin, friend, or associate.

These data all from someone's memory, family legend, or hearsay :)


NATAL SAGITTARIUS MERCURY HOUSE 8 SEXTILE LIBRA JUPITER


horoscope-chart5__radix_2-11-1755_17-00.png
 
Frater, one more (repeat) suggestion.

We can't always find relevant asteroids, but sometimes their interpretive value is uncanny. Especially namesake asteroids, if any. Generally I use only the conjunction with a planet or angle, and then a tight orb. One example is that a few years ago, I looked at the horoscope of Donna Strickland. She is a Canadian physics professor who came out of obscurity to share the Nobel Prize in physics in 2018. There is an asteroid Nobel, and several other named asteroids relevant to her career.

Another, more recent example, is that I am in a group of four friends with a standing weekly card game, plus I have other different contingencies with each of them. I've checked out the synastry, which is good. On Friday I had a really meaningful private conversation with one of them that left a big emotional impact. I looked up the chart. Sure enough his solar arc name-sake asteroid hit my Mercury-Venus conjunction, which is opposite my moon. The better conjunction was with my partile Mercury-moon opposition. That solar arc hit was within minutes. He has a natal 5-degree orb sun-Mercury conjunction. My solar arc namesake asteroid fell right between them, on the midpoint.

Getting back to your post 77, not only might asteroids and fixed stars be more meaningful than mere space junk; but if they work, it says something I cannot begin to imagine about our cosmos.

There are always more fine-tuned prognosticative methods, but there may be more tangible bits and pieces out there with relevance to the life of Marie Antoinette.
 
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Marie Antoinette, Queen Consort :)
Birthname: Maria Antonia Anna Josepha Joanna

NATAL RODDEN RATING A
Data as quoted by the person, kin, friend, or associate.
These data all from someone's memory, family legend, or hearsay
:)

DOMICILED SATURN MC
horoscope-chart5__radix_2-11-1755_17-00.png
 
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