Marie Antoinette, Queen of France -- Life and Death

[FraterAC]

WB,
I don't doubt that this information is way too left-brain for most folks here. It is for me. I believe I've known maybe a half-dozen people in my life who had enough raw brain power to use this information in the form of data like this. I would not personally be among that number.
What I rely on is the Mk. I eyeball and some intuition. I use the lists, but I constantly refer back to the chartwheels. Most of the essential things pop out, sooner or later (generally right after I’ve posted something).

Rather than statistics, what would be more helpful I think would be a program that could follow a simple decision tree in evaluating this myriad of possibly important aspects. It would go down through the various progressions (& etc) in pretty much the order I've presented them here in this thread.
For example:

Routine I
Run Major progressions
Result (save the most significant Major progressions within 1 degree or less. To make a simplified example: )
Major progressed Saturn (8th house) semisquare Uranus (10th house)
Major progressed Saturn to conjunction antiscion Mercury (8th house)
Major Midheaven and Major Moon's Nodes to radical Pluto

Routine II
Run Tertiary progressions
Compare Tertiary progressions to natal, antiscion and progressed planets (from above)
Do any Tertiary progressions aspect natal, antiscion or progressed positions of Saturn, Uranus, Mercury, Midheaven or Moon’s Nodes?
If Yes, save; if No, discard.

Routine III
Run Minor progressions
Compare Minor progressions to natal, antiscion and Major progressed planetary positions (from above steps)
Do any Minor progressions aspect natal, antiscion or Major progressed positions of Saturn, Uranus, Mercury, Midheaven or Moon’s Nodes?
If Yes, save; if No, discard.
Do any Minor progressions aspect Tertiary positions saved in Routine II?
If Yes, save; if No, discard.

Routine IV
Run Transits.
Compare Transits to natal, antiscion and Major progressed planetary positions (from above steps)
Do any Transits aspect natal, antiscion or Major progressed positions of Saturn, Uranus, Mercury, Midheaven or Moon’s Nodes?
If Yes, save; if No, discard.
Do any Transits aspect Tertiary positions saved in Routine II?
If Yes, save; if No, discard.
Do any Transits aspect Minor positions saved in Routine III?
If Yes, save; if No, discard.

Routine V
Group all Tertiary, Minor or Transit aspects with the Major aspects they reinforce, in this order
Major
Tertiary
Minor
Transits
Discard any non-reinforced Major aspects.
Discard any aspect configurations not triggered by Transits.

What’s left ought to account for any significant experience the native has. Right?

In such a program, it might also be possible to quantify the power of the aspects by orb, etc.
That’s the basic algorithm that I think should be followed. It’s logically pretty simple but as you can imagine, takes a fair amount of time and concentration, with lots of room for human error.
It’s basically similar to the routine the Church of Light astrologers have been doing manually for over 100 years.
The example only accounts for progressions for illustrative purposes. In practice I would like to see in mundo connections to the angles, Equatorial directions, Solar/Lunar Arc directions, Solar/Lunar returns and progressed returns, etc. Ideally there would be a loop that would allow the user to add in other predictive techniques along the way as desired.

Maybe Kaktuzz or some other astrological programmer with not one other thing in the world to do could write a program that does this.

Or maybe it’s me and Microsoft Office for the duration.

 

[FraterAC]

I should say that I did not know what I was going to see when I started looking into Marie's chart and progressions. I did NOT hand pick her for an example knowing what was going to show up.
That some of this is as clear as it is was a surprise. Especially the aspects recurring on her 8th house Saturn and antiscion Mercury, detailed here

• #97

It's very persuasive, IMO.

 

[waybread]

Left-brained is good. The main thing I'm thinking is that when a detailed chart analysis produces hundreds of findings, how does one sift through all of it and separate the wheat from the chaff in any objective way? It looks like you've made a good start at this.

All kinds of thought-bubbles run through my mind on the data analysis. For example, any weighting of results? Would the sun, moon (or Saturn) "hits" carry more weight than for, say, Venus?

What about major vs. minor aspects? When I studied harmonics some years ago, it really popped out at me that one thing that makes a major aspect major, is that all of the lesser aspects in that series get embedded in it. The conjunction is kind of the One Ring to Rule Them All. With the two-series, all of the 4, 8, 16, 32, &c &c aspects get embedded in the opposition; plus the sextile partakes of the 2-series as 2x3. In studying harmonics, I agree that a narrow orb is crucial, because an orb of 10 degrees in a radix chart (common for luminaries) becomes a square in a 9H (novile) chart, and so on.

Are we looking at nominal data (like Venus in Sagittarius) or rank-ordered data (like a wide vs narrow orb) or data that can be numerically scaled? More broadly, is the focus on one individual of historical significance, or is the hope that she would be just one instance of a broader explanation of sudden violent deaths?

Anyway, you've got enough to think about without all of this.

 

[FraterAC]

she would be just one instance of a broader explanation

The idea, again, is, because one's transition (death) is highly significant, generally involuntary, and definite in time, it's a good example of celestial influence. I am NOT NOT NOT interested in predicting death. Charles Jayne studied it for the same reasons.

Neither am I trying to figure out whether or not astrological influence is a "thing." I have a pretty good idea that it is. I don't need convincing, personally.

The algorithm I described in #101 is how one can approach this process of winnowing down the myriad of aspects that have to be dealt with. Why so many techniques, so many aspects to process? Because at one time or another over the years, all these elements have shown up as significant; and in this present case they are proven to definitely be significant. Some occurrence relatively mysterious in one technique is transparent in another.

It would be great if we could throw out all this "symbolic" stuff, and the antiscion, and forget about the diurnal rotation of the Earth, and just use transits and call it good, but we've seen repeatedly that when we do that, we can't predict or explain anything. Not even getting beheaded in a public spectacle!

As for prioritizing these influences, I'm thinking we have to start with the big pieces. First of all, the birth chart. Then, the diurnal rotation of the Earth, or Secondary/Major progressions, or Solar Arc directions. Then we start looking for companion techniques to reinforce and time those, to include Tertiary and/or Minor progressions, Lunar Arc directions, etc. At some point calculating returns, and progressing them, is useful. Finally, transits.

I realize what I'm detailing here, calculating in mundo risings and culminations, three kinds of directions, three kinds of progressions, two return chart techniques including progressing the returns, and then trying to correlate everything, is, practically speaking, overkill. No amateur or beginning professional astrologer is going to have the time to do this kind of work for a one hour consultation with someone. Neither is it going to make much sense to drill down to days and hours (although that is most definitely possible) for someone who's asking the usual general questions.

What I am suggesting is, one might use Major-Minor-Transits as a general routine, or Solar/Lunar Arc directions, or Solar/Lunar returns, and progressed returns, or Secondary-Tertiary-transits, and maybe watch for Rising/Setting/Culminating planets by diurnal rotation (which is relatively rare), and of course, everyone is going to employ transits in one way or another.* The major astrological software products can do all or most of these things, and with a little support from the usual desktop applications, even the most basic astrology software can be made to do a lot more than the designers originally intended.

The main thing is, IMHO more people ought to perhaps think about expanding the repertoire of astrological techniques they employ -- and in the process that might bring them to a better understanding of this marvelous existence in which we live. To say nothing of actually providing more useful and accurate information to the people they see.

So there are multiple ways to approach this whole question of astrological influences/explanations/forecasting/prediction.
Hopefully this thread will show some people what is possible, what can be used, and possible ways to use it.

* My opinion about transits as generally used doesn't need to be repeated. However, there are lots of more sophisticated techniques for using transits that people who don't believe in all this "symbolic" mumbo-jumbo could be using -- but aren't.

Robert Hand put forth a technique in Planets in Transit for summing the orbs of multiple transits to derive the date/time of their manifestation, which I have never seen anyone use or even describe. In the same book (which I'd guess 90% of the people here have) he describes adjusting transits for precession, which again, almost no one (outside of the Siderealist camp) does.

Robert Blaschke in his series Astrology: A Language of Life - Volume V- Holographic Transits describes using phase angle returns with transits to identify significant periods in one's life. He also describes the transiting synodic cycles of the planets and their meaning.

David Cochrane has presented information about using transiting phase angles and reverse phase angles as precipitating events.

There are various techniques around eclipses that seem to be fairly rarely used. When do they start to exert an influence? How long do they last? How does the position of the Nodes, and their transit affect them?

So there are a lot of techniques the transit-only camp could avail themselves of.

 

[FraterAC]

The Quotidian Angles

The usefulness of the Quotidian progressed angles is that they can time the manifestation of aspects (either from directions, progressions or transits) to one specific day. Having discussed the importance of these angles in the thread Your progressed Midheaven is not your progressed Midheaven! It follows, what were Marie Antoinette’s Quotidian angles on that fateful day?

Calculation of the Quotidian angles by phase angles are given here
#2 and
#4

Marie’s Quotidian progressed angles for October 16, 1793 were
Midheaven Aquarius 16:03
Ascendant Gemini 17:48

Quotidian Progressed Angles in aspect

Quotidian progressed Midheaven inconjunct radical Mars (22’); Major progressed Mars is inconjunct radical Eris, and Major progressed Pluto is inconjunct radical Mars; the Qtd Midheaven times these to this day.
Qtd Ascendant square radical Moon’s Nodes (24’); Major progressed Sun is square radical Nodes; the Qtd times this influence to the day.

The aspects of the Quotidian angles with Secondary/Major progressed angles are significant. Also of interest are aspects made by these angles with midpoints in the progressed chart.
In the section in which this writer detailed the Major Mutual progressed aspects, the Sun conjunct Eris aspect was noticed, but not fully appreciated. Certainly the discordant and bloodthirsty side of Eris played out in the atavistic spectacle of the native’s execution.
Note that the Quotidian angles put the progressed Pluto/Eris/Sun stellium (both Pluto and the Sun are just in orb to conjoin Eris) on the Descendant/cusp of 7th house, the place of open enemies, and for a public figure, the public; in Marie’s case, the citizenry.

Qtd Midheaven inconjunct Secondary/Major Mars (19’); timing Mars/Eris and Pluto/Mars as above;
Qtd Ascendant opposition 2nd/Maj Eris (26’)
Qtd Ascendant opposition 2nd/Maj Sun (31’)

Qtd Ascendant opposition 2nd/Maj Sun/Eris midpoint, Sagittarius 17:51 (03’)
Qtd Ascendant opposition 2nd/Maj Sun/Pluto midpoint, Sagittarius 17:13 (35’)
Qtd Ascendant square 2nd/Maj Moon/Moon’s South Node midpoint, Pisces 17:32 (16’)

Tertiary Jupiter inconjunct Quotidian Ascendant (17’); Major Jupiter is square antiscion Pluto; Jupiter recurs in progressions and transits;
Ter Saturn trine Qtd Ascendant (33’); Saturn recurs in all the progressions and directions, ruler of the 8th house;

Minor progressed Neptune opposition Quotidian Midheaven (03’); the theme of Neptune representing the expansion of, or transition to another level of consciousness recurs in the directions and progressions; timed here to the day.

Transiting Venus square Quotidian Ascendant (18’).

Again, the progressed Quotidian angles time these influences to a specific day.

This chart presents the native’s Secondary/Major progressed chart using the Quotidian angles calculated by phase angle for October 16, 1793.

The chart below presents the native’s nativity on the inner wheel, the Secondary/Major progressed chart with Quotidian angles on the middle wheel, and the Tertiary progressions on the outer wheel.

 

[FraterAC]

The chart below presents the native’s Secondary/Major progressed chart with Quotidian angles on the inner wheel, the Minor progressions on the middle wheel, and the transits for October 16, 1793 at 1215 TLT on the outer wheel.

 

[FraterAC]

It's always interesting to me to hover over these charts and note how the aspects line up.

 

[FraterAC]

Marie and Louis​

Just to show it’s not all about death and carnage for this writer, the focus will now shift to another incident in Marie Antoinette’s life that I had been wanting to look at. This is the occasion of her first in person meeting with Louis Auguste, the Dauphin of France, later to be crowned King Louis XVI, her politically arranged spouse (they were already legally married in absentia).

Marie was fourteen years old; everything she had brought from her native Austria had been taken from her and replaced with French equivalents; all her clothing, jewelry, personal possessions, companions, handmaidens and servants, her dog, her language, even her name. This young woman was now alone in a foreign country meeting the person she was to be married to and spend the rest of her life with, and his family.

It's hard to imagine a more fraught moment.

Unfortunately, although we know the exact place of the meeting, this writer has not been able to determine the time. We can be reasonably assured it was during daylight, because the initial meeting was outdoors; the chart was therefore cast for noon. The angles of the transit chart will have to be disregarded, but the place of the Moon should be within a degree or two.

The following chart has Marie’s nativity on the inner wheel, the antiscion on the middle wheel, and the transits for noon, May 14, 1770 at the Forest of Compiègne on the outer wheel.

 

[FraterAC]

Starting with Transits

Speaking from the perspective of someone born in the First World in the 20th Century, it is difficult to imagine less auspicious celestial portents of a happy and fulfilling life relationship than those presented in the heavens over that first meeting at the Forest of Compiègne.
Refer to chart in
#108
Above.

Transits to Marie’s Radix

Transiting Eris, the planet of discord, was very close conjunct Marie’s radical Descendant, the place of partnership and marriage. Transiting Mars was sesquiquadrate her natal Venus, the two planets indicating the attraction between lovers, being in disharmony; transiting Venus was also sesquiquadrate her Moon in Libra. Transiting Uranus opposed her natal Venus; emotional upset.
Transiting Neptune is sesquiquadrate her natal Saturn, the ruler of her 7th house of marriage, indicating subconscious conflict or intrigue. One bright spot is the Sun trine her Saturn.
The transiting Moon (weak influence that it is) is in her 7th house, in opposition to her natal Mars in the 1st house.

Transiting Eris conjunct radical Descendant (07’)
Transiting Sun trine radical Saturn (14’)
Transiting Mars sesquiquadrate radical Venus (16’)
Transiting Moon opposition radical Mars (30’)
Transiting Neptune sesquiquadrate radical Saturn (37’)
Transiting Venus sesquiquadrate radical Moon (39’)
Transiting Uranus opposition radical Venus (46’)

Transits to Marie’s Antiscion

Another bright spot coming from comparison with the antiscion positions is the Moon’s North Node, indicating expansion and new manifestations, conjunct Marie’s antiscion Saturn, 7th house ruler.
On the negative side, both transiting Venus and Mercury oppose antiscion Saturn, and transiting Saturn opposes antiscion Mercury. These could indicate the suppression of emotion and communication, in this context, by the constraints of duty and responsibility. Mental and emotional depression. Neptune, transiting her 4th house, opposes her antiscion Moon, suggesting inner conflict and emotional instability affecting the home. The transiting Moon is also conjunct antiscion Pluto in the 7th house.

Transiting Moon’s North Node conjunct antiscion Saturn (13’)
Transiting Venus opposition antiscion Saturn (17’)
Transiting Neptune opposition antiscion Moon (19’)
Transiting Saturn opposition antiscion Mercury (31’)
Transiting Moon conjunct antiscion Pluto (41’)
Transiting Mercury opposition antiscion Saturn (55’)

Transit Mutual Aspects

The Sun, Mercury and Venus are all transiting Marie’s 12th house, associated with restrictions, disappointments, loneliness, and scandal. Possibly one of the worst portents is Mercury and Venus both conjunct the Moon’s South Node, which indicates decrease and decline, and is Saturnine in effect.

Transiting Moon’s South Node conjunct transiting Venus (05’)
Transiting Venus conjunct transiting Mercury (37’)
Transiting Moon’s South Node conjunct transiting Mercury (42’)

It’s hard not to feel compassion for this young woman (just a girl, really) cast into this situation by factors totally beyond her control.

 

[FraterAC]

they were already legally married in absentia

That's not technically correct. They were legally married by proxy, on 4/19/1770. The ceremony for Maria Antonia was held in Vienna with much ceremony and display, before she left for France. Her brother, the Archduke Ferdinand, stood in for Louis Auguste.
One is tried in absentia.
Marie's formal marriage to Louis in Versailles took place two days after their meeting, on May 16, 1770. Her groom, the Dauphin, was 15, a little over 14 months older than she was.

 

[FraterAC]

Marie and Louis Synastry

Synastry between two people’s charts has not been a major interest for this writer lately, but this native and her marriage are definitely worth taking a look at. It is appreciated that this application of calculating synastries to judge compatibility has been intensely studied by modern astrologers, and a plethora of measures to determine it have been put forward. The relevant charts will be presented, and comment from forum members is definitely invited.
Early in my astrological studies, three elements were posited to determine compatibility: Sun/Moon and Mars/Venus connections, and the Ascendants being of compatible polarities.

Comparing the two charts, we see Marie’s Sun is 2° 14' from a conjunction with Louis’s Moon. This would indicate a deep connection between these two personalities, with Marie in the position of greater influence in the relationship.
Regarding the Mars/Venus connection, there is no close aspect between Mars and Venus in these charts, suggesting no romantic or sexual chemistry between the royal couple. Louis’ Venus is 9 28’ from applying to a square of Marie’s Mars, and her Venus is 9 58’ from a sextile to his Mars and applying. Their marriage was not actually consummated until August of 1777, over seven years after their meeting and ceremonial marriage at Versailles.
In terms of the couple’s rising signs, they were Virgo and Cancer for Louis and Marie respectively. Both being signs of negative polarity (Earth and Water) the couple would be judged compatible by this measure.

Next we might look to 7th house connections.

Unfortunately, Louis’ Saturn in Capricorn is in Marie’s 7th house, and in opposition to her 1st House Mars. This would have an inhibiting or depressive effect on her; it might have been ameliorated somewhat by her Venus being in very close sextile (07’) to his Saturn.
His 7th house Saturn is also close sextile (10’) Uranus in her 10th.

Marie’s Uranus is in close conjunction (57’) with Louis’ Descendant. As her Venus is trine her Uranus, the effect of this could have been mixed. While she was known to have a definite magnetism, her Uranus on his Descendant may have made for a very unstable relationship from his point of view.
Her Moon’s South Node in his 7th might also have had an enervating effect on his experience of their marriage.
On the plus side, her Jupiter, co-ruler of Louis’ Pisces 7th house, is closely conjunct his Venus (0° 47'), his affections and relationships, and her Jupiter is also sextile his Neptune (0° 36'), the other co-ruler of his 7th.

Louis’ Uranus and Pluto are semisquare the ruler of Marie’s 7th house, Saturn (1° 21' and 2° 47' respectively), and his Midheaven and Ascendant are sesquiquadrate (0° 43' and 4° 04' respectively). His Mars does trine her Saturn (1° 58'), and although harmonious is hardly the coziest of aspects.

It might be noted both royals had Mars in their first houses, making for the possibility of two assertive personalities. Louis’ close stellium of Jupiter, Sun and Mercury, one of the major features of his chart, is semisquare Marie’s 1st house Mars.

The Evolutionary Astrologers will observe that Louis’ North Node is conjunct Marie’s Jupiter (2° 46'), and her North Node is conjunct his Mars (4° 01').

I invite the Synastry experts in the forum to comment.

The first chart below presents Marie on the inside, and Louis on the outside. The second chart shows the reverse, Louis inside, Marie outside.

 

[waybread]

FraterAC, I claim no synastry expertise, but a couple of things come to mind.

1. In whole signs, Louis XVI's Saturn is in Marie Antoinette's 7th house, which gives her a double-whammy. A standard interpretation of Saturn in the 7th so far as marriage is concerned is disappointments and delays. This couple had to marry at a ridiculously young age, but their marriage got off to a very rocky start, as you know.

2. The 7th symbolizes both marriage and "open enemies" (vs. 12th house back-stabbers.)

3. I think Louis XVI's Uranus conjunct the 7th house cusp has to count for something. It is retrograde, but close enough to the DC to influence the 7th house. It advanced into Leo in 1789, when he basically lost his throne. It closes in on his sun-Jupiter at the time of his execution. Uranus is the modern ruler of revolutions.

Maybe it's Just Me, but I prefer to see the charts individually, vs. bi-wheels that twist one chart around to fit another one, and losing one chart's house cusps. I find them more confusing to read.

 

[FraterAC]

I prefer to see the charts individually, vs. bi-wheels

Yes, it is more difficult, which is why I presented the charts both ways, two sets of bi-wheels.
With synastry, I think of each chart as being a "permanent transit" if you will, to the other. So I like to see where the planets are in the other chart. In this case, specifically who has what in the other's 7th house.
The rule in the Rosicrucian Fellowship literature for healers is, the healer's Saturn can't be in the patient's 6th or 1st house. I extrapolate that to, the spouse's Saturn should probably not be in the other's 7th; concerning children, in the 5th; how major configurations in one chart appear in the other, and so on.
No doubt the other folks around here who are into synastry have lots of other factors they judge by, which is why I hope to see their comments.

 

[Monk]

Hi FraterAC
Many of the learned astrologers here follow different Schools that teach different interpretations from the Rosicrucian Fellowship, the one in America elected to have their Constitution on 8th August 1909.
"The Rosicrucian Fellowship's formal constitution occurred on August 8, 1909, in Seattle, Washington"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosicrucian_Fellowship#Origins_and_foundation
Seattle, Washington is the only area of Latitude that Sirius rises with the Sun in Northern Hemisphere on this date, it is still there in 2024
Rat, a new member from China will tell you that two eights is very lucky, which happens to be my birthday, but a different year to The Rosicrucian Fellowship.
Other astrologers make a big deal about the "Lions Portal"??????.
https://risingwoman.com/astro-report-lionsgate-portal-2023/I will be with my friends, relaxing on date, we are full of different interpretations!

 

[FraterAC]

The RCF is a good organization, and a good place for a person to begin astrological or Theosophical studies. I read some of their literature but did not formally affiliate (if anyone is speculating).
Not that anybody should care, since it isn't anyone else's business.