No disputes? Well other than myself, I guess?
I just don't trust birth times recorded before W.W.II. There was no "atomic clock" back then, who knows from what timepiece the time was recorded as, and more than likely it was a close estimate.
I think a hospital would be most likely to also use quarter hours for such estimation. I cast a number of charts and have reason to believe she was born any time between 9:22:16 a.m. and 9:39:22 a.m.
That would put Her Asc. from 11° Leo 28' 28" & M.C. at 04° Taurus 00' 00" to Asc. 14° Leo 59' 57" & M.C. 08° Taurus 24' 51"....
As I wrote that I know so very little about the woman there's no way I was able to determine anything by comparing the Sabian Symbols for 12th, 13th, 14th, and 15th degrees of Leo as to figure out which fit Her personality, her sense of awareness, as the symbolism for the Asc. is the "WHO" of the chart individual, not could I use the opposite degrees to determine what she was meant to transform into, or where she was headed, as the Desc. is the "WHERE-TO" of the chart axis, according to Dane Rudhyar, although I have found that it is sometimes more appropriate to think of it as "WHOM-TO".
You, however, might have a go at it, as you seem to know so very much about the woman.
The M.C.'s symbolically reveal the "HOW" of the transformation from the symbolism found at the Asc to that of the Desc. when interpreting the chart for the persons spiritual evolution, or progress. There you have quite a range as the earliest of the charts has 04° Taurus 00' 00", that's the 4th degree smack on the button all the way to the 9th degree of Taurus, and thus you have six Sabian Symbols to look over along with there polar opposites for the I.C. which is the symbolic "WHY" as to the other three points of the chart axis, as in "WHY" the transformation. For regarding Her mundane affairs the roles of the M.C. and I.C. are reversed.
But here's where I usually get to the bottom of things..that is through the Sabian Symbolism found for key Astrological Parts. Te earliest chart I have here puts the Part of Fortune at 20° Aries 03' 26" and that's the 21st degree of Aries while the latest chart has the Part of Fortune at 23° 44' 22", the 24th degree of Aries. Some there are four different Sabian Symbols to consider.
The Par of Catastrophe [which I've found to be an inevitable but necessary catastrophe to the individual, as you probably know that I've proposed that of the Nazarene to have been in the 28th degree of Virgo, as that is what is produced from the chart I cast, and that it has to do with challenging political and, or, religious power structures, hierarchies, and the like. My own Part of Catastrophe is symbolic of what caused me to travel 500 miles and move in with my brother for nine months just when He had compiled his findings from an two year intensive study of astrology, which He proceeded to teach me those 9 months. Thus it is a very necessary "catastrophe" but not necessarily always a lethal one, or even physically harming at all, but some occurrence that will be assessed as such in retrospect.... and forewarned is forearmed, being knowledgeable of it might allow one to be prepared and able to mitigate what damage it causes?These charts produce a Part of Catastrophe from 00° Gemini 01' 48", i.e. the 1st degree of Gemini to 03° Gemini 32' 37", which is the 4th degree of Gemini.
But the one that caught my attention is the Part of Destiny. [M.C. + Sun - Moon] The earliest time gives a Part of Destiny at 25° Leo 25' 02", which is a very beautiful Sabian Symbol, it's the degree that follows my M.C. and Part of Fortune and also happens to be the Part of Love and Appreciation from the chart I have proposed is that of the Nazarene and the woman that gave me the inspiration to produce a chart for that date with Pluto conj. the Asc., which was the key to the entire find. That woman, Miss X, as I identify her in the book, was given a reading by the clairvoyant I've trusted the last , nearly, 20 years, as for past life associations and is said to have been one of the two nannies the Nazarene had in that lifetime. The other nanny having been identified by Edgar Cayce some 80 to 90 years ago. Hence why I found it so fascinating, and so logical, that she would also have the same Sign and degree for her Part of Love in this lifetime as well as a Pluto Ascendant conjunction, that allows here to have the vision and the ability to heal.
But, as to that Sabian Symbol being a Part of Destiny for Marilyn?
The latest time I have a chart for, however,, gives the Part of Destiny at 29° Leo 40' 25", which is the 30th degree of Leo. Now that means the Part could be either the 26th, the 27th, the 28th, the 29th, or the 30th degree of Leo.
But it's the 30th that caught my eye .
For one thing it is the same Sign and Degree I have my Part of Astrology in [Part of Signs to be found Around oneself, what are made visible to all. The other Part also titled Part of Signs, is really about Omens and Signs, the kind which are personal to oneself, and for that person exclusively] It is also Donald Trump's Ascendant, and I think is so bloody obvious that it fits Him like a "T".
As you did mention the speculation, the belief held by some, that she was divulging certain information. For the Sabian Symbol for the 30th degree of Leo, as given and interpreted by the late Dane Rudhyar in his book, "An Astrological Mandala", is given as...
"LEO 30°: AN UNSEALED LETTER.
KEYNOTE: The realization by the individual that all thoughts and all messages are inevitably to be shared with all men.
Coming as it does as the end of this tenth scene and linked with the last degree of the zodiacal sign, Leo, this symbol seems at first quite puzzling; when it has been thought of as an isolated symbol, its essential meaning has not been apparent. The fact that a letter is unsealed does not imply a trust that other people will not read its contents, but rather the idea that the contents are for all men to read. The letter contains a public message in the sense that when man has reached the stage of true mental repolarization and development — which we see in the very first symbol for Leo — he has actually become a participant in the One Mind of humanity. Nothing can really be hidden, except superficially and for a brief time. What any man thinks and deeply realizes becomes the property of all men. Nothing is more senseless than possessiveness in the realm of ideas. If God speaks to a man, Man hears the word. Nothing can remain permanently 'sealed'.
As this thirtieth sequence of five symbols ends, it is made clear to us, and particularly to the inherently proud Leo type, that all that takes form within the mind of a man belongs to all men. Communication and SHARING must always prevail over the will to glorify oneself by claiming sole possession of ideas and information."
As to being my Part of Astrology, it relates in that I claim nothing to be proprietary of my findings, discoveries if you may, but these things were all known in a time of great antiquity. I have never made even a dime from the book I wrote as I violated the terms of the contract by writing of the contents online like I do.
As for being Donald Trump's Asc. I think that's pretty obvious. He talks way too much more than he should, which doesn't make him a "bad man", just rather bad for a diplomat. [hmmm.? I going to have to look and see what His Part of Catastrophe is after I finish writing this!]
AS for the possibility that it may be Marilyn's Part of Destiny, I think you get the picture?
Yet, the 29th of Leo does sound like it could also very well be. The 28th has potential as well. The 27th of Leo, I have to say that I don't see it as a fit, but I could be wrong? And as for the Sabian Symbol for the 26th degree of Leo, the one I have already touched on as being the Sabian Symbol for Part of Love from the chart I have proposed for the Nazarene, and it being the same for "Miss X", it has some potential too, and was given by Dane as [without the commentary, Just the symbol and Dane's "keynote", as it his remark in the keynote that caught my eye][ibid.]
"LEO 26°: AFTER THE HEAVY STORM, A RAINBOW.
KEYNOTE: Linking above and below, the Covenant with one's divine nature, promise of immortality.
"
...just that bit about "immortality" is what I'm referring to here. She has become somewhat 'immortal".
But I'm in favor of that 30th degree of Leo as being the degree of Her M.C. but then again I know so very little about the woman. I did enjoy a few of her films though. "Some Like It Hot" is my favorite.
Hi Pierce, thank you for such a great and informative post, that contains within it a wealth of information, not just about MM, but expert tips regarding Sabian symbols, as well as some extra knowledge in your exploration of them. I found your explanation about the AC-DC and IC-MC meaning a spiritual journey from 'who' to a 'whom to' and 'why' to where' particularly interesting. It will be interesting for me to spend time to study the 4 potential different Sabian symbols for Marilyn Monroe, which you have proposed for her birth time, but for now I will discuss the latest birth time, which you have stated to be probably the most accurate birth time for her.
I agree the latest birth time of the 30th degree of Leo which gives a Leo 30 'Unsealed Letter' for Marilyn's Part of Destiny. You touched upon the speculation surrounding Marilyn's death and I think you are referring to the story surrounding Marilyn that she threatened to go public with her affairs with the Kennedy brother's. This is not what I believe and I will briefly explain my journey into what I now believe -
For many years, I did believe in the suspicion's surrounding MM's death and did read about her having supposedly been due to have a TV interview where she would do a 'tell all' about her affairs, the day before she died. I strongly believed in my heart that MM's death was suspicious also. It was only when I was joined and became a member of MM's official fan club on FB that my strong belief was battered somewhat by the predominate belief from her 'professional' fans that MM being murdered was a myth and a hoax. At first, I did not want to believe it, mainly in part to a kind of personal relationship I felt I had with MM, where I wanted to save and protect her, which she seems to have a knack of getting people to feel about her. Long story short, my stay at MM's official fan club was short lived because it is a very conservative type of place - they basically took umbrage to my opinion about one of her co-stars, Laurence Olivier, being a closet transexual. My opinion was so 'out there' that they did not want a member like me wreaking such havoc, and I was swiftly removed from the club.
I was a little peeved for a couple of days because I felt being a true fan I should be a member of the official fan club, but I have not felt like I have missed out on anything. The main reason for this is due to me being a member of another fan club of hers, which is not the 'official' or longest running one but has a member of it who is pretty much the authority of MM. He was a journalist in the 60s and interviewed Elizabeth Taylor and many other stars (he was a bit too young to have met or interviewed MM herself), but he knows pretty much everything there is to know about MM, and he is also a rational and factual type. Basically, I trust his opinion, as many, many others do, but I have a good friendship with him because he respects my reasons why I am a fan of MM - basically, I am not just a fan of MM, but a fan of Norma Jeane too, and I am drawn to MM because I relate to the orphan archetype that she represents, as he does too. Anyway, his opinion, and this is a shared opinion from official fans, and anyway who is able to discern facts from myths, is that MM was not murdered but most likely died from suicide, accidental or not. She had an extreme addiction to sleeping pills and had many close calls before. It is the opinion of her ex husband and those who knew her at the time, that it was most likely her sleeping pill addiction that caused her death.
With regards to her affair with the Kennedy brother's, the myth has grown such legs and had been profitable and exciting to so many different people for so many years, that it has really gotten out of hand. The main culprits for starting this rumour lies with two people - Jeanne Carmen and Robert S Slatzer. Jeanna Carmen was an actress who was an acquaintance of MM who greatly and vastly exaggerated her friendship with MM - in reality, she hardly knew her. Robert S Slatzer wrote a book about MM and even claimed to have married her, in his books, he wrote about the supposed affairs with MM. There was a biography about MM published in the 80s which concentrated on the Kennedy angle, and the success of this book brought about a resurgence of interest in MM. In truth, Carmen and Slatzer's version of events have all been discredited and any other witness who talks about MM's connections to the Kennedy brother's can all be discredited by fact too. I asked my friend, the retired journalist I know, if she ever had an affair with the Kennedy's. He said, at the most, if they did sleep together, it was a one night stand, and could possibly have happened when she was invited to a dinner that he was there, at her friend Peter Lawford's house. There is evidence she attended this dinner, from notes and letters she has written about the dinner, but that is the only known, factual time, they were ever known to have met, so might have slept together then. There is no evidence for any other meeting, the rest, is hearsay and a type of feverish fantasy that grew legs over time.
The fact MM sang Happy Birthday to the president 2 month's before she did does not help squash the rumours
it was actually only yesterday, May 19th, in 1962 that MM sang Happy Birthday to John F Kennedy, and she would be dead by August 4th/5th. The popular held opinion is that MM was serenading her lover publicly and this caused huge embarrassment to the president. The truth is, it was just a performance. It was not 'just' a performance though, it is such a sexy performance it is verging on the ridiculous - but that is what Marilyn Monroe was - she was a comedienne. Marilyn Monroe was part-clown. Part of what makes a clown so poignant is that there is a sadness to the laughter. With MM you have sexiness, laughter and sadness all rolled into one. The sadness is this - and it is what so many girl's have with the Father wound - they strive to be beautiful because they have a deep longing for their Father to find them beautiful. On a deep, psychological, subconscious sense - the reason the Happy Birthday serenade comes across like an intrusion into a personal seduction, is because it was very much a personal love song - to the public, but also to MM's Dad. Here she is in her 'birthday suit' - naked and vulnerable, asking to be loved by her Father and the public. It was a most beautiful last stand from a 36 year old actress whose career was fading.
Had MM not died so young and in her prime and with so much myth surrounding her, she would have been another faded out actress. Except, she was not any other actress and this never ending energy surrounding her can be explained by the Sabian symbol - an unopened envelope. The Sabian symbol excerpt you posted above of her Part of Destiny, explains MM's destiny exactly.
I will post separately regarding your reply to my post about Marilyn psychic powers, as well as commenting on your mention of her downward faxing Pentagram and connection to Lilith! For now, here are some videos, quotes, articles and photos concenring either MM's death, legacy or performance at the President's Birthday gala. 'Til next time.
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Video —
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Marilyn Monroe Happy Birthday
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vg5HIMnPx7k
Quotes and articles —
'The more you know about people the more complex they are to you. They're all writing about her and they can't because they don't know anything about her. They're writing a lot of rubbish. If she were simple, it would have been easy to help her. One must have humility and respect for the mysteries of life.
She could have made it with a little luck. She needed a blessing. The movie business is a tough life. She's not the first one who went under. The young woman I knew wasn't the movie star and I was able to separate her two lives.
The Misfits, the last film Marilyn appeared in, was a good movie, and Marilyn was good in it. She wasn't appreciated enough as an actress and she was getting even better. She had a lot of things going for her and I don't think she would have taken her life.'
— Arthur Miller, Marilyn's ex-husband, quoted on 6th August, 1962, two day's after she died.
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'The conspiracy theories began flying thick and fast soon after Monroe’s death. In 1964, only two years after the fact, author Frank Capell published a 70-page pamphlet titled The Strange Death of Marilyn Monroe, in which he alleged that Monroe had had an affair with Bobby Kennedy, and that the Kennedy family had been involved in her untimely death. (He also claimed that Monroe, Miller, and Monroe’s doctors were communists.) The FBI quickly began investigating, although nothing came of the investigation. In 1973, this conspiracy got going again when Norman Mailer wrote a biography of Monroe in which he claimed that Bobby Kennedy had killed her — though he quickly admitted that he’d made the story up to sell books.
Other theories have proliferated in the decades since. In Goddess, Summers claimed that Monroe overdosed and died en route to the hospital — and that Bobby Kennedy and his associates staged her suicide attempt to keep their relationship under wraps. In Marilyn Monroe: Murder Cover-Up, private detective Milo Speriglio made an even more outlandish claim: that she was killed by Jimmy Hoffa and his associate, Chicago mobster Sam Giancana, to send a message to the Kennedys to leave the mob alone. No theory is as out-there as the one proposed in the UFO documentary Unacknowledged: According to that film, Monroe was killed because she knew too much about the government’s secrets about aliens.
None of these theories — including Summers’ hold water. Monroe was not killed to protect Jimmy Hoffa or aliens. (Politifact reports that there is no evidence supporting the conspiracy theories surrounding her death.) And if she did have a relationship with Bobby Kennedy, that relationship didn’t kill her. She was, instead, struggling with the glare of the spotlight, mental health issues, chronic insomnia, and, most concretely, a debilitating substance abuse disorder. It shouldn’t be hard to understand what happened to Marilyn Monroe. But it’s sometimes easier to imagine an extraordinary explanation for a tragic event than to reckon with the truth.'
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https://www.bustle.com/entertainment/how-did-marilyn-monroe-die-kennedy-conspiracy
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Photos —
