More than one sign in a house

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EdgesOnCircles

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My apologies if there have been numerous posts on this topic in the past so "link me up" if that's the case :biggrin:

Say you are reading a natal chart and the cusp of the first house is in Sagittarius (24 degrees) so that Capricorn spans the remainder of the 1st house and Aquarius makes up the 2nd house. I would still say this person is a Rising Sagittarius but is the first house ruled by Jupiter (Sagittarius) or Saturn (Capricorn)? Or is it both? Or would you determine the ruler of the 1st house based on which sign holds the most influential planets? For example, :mercury: is in Sagittarius and :saturn:, :uranus:, and :neptune: fall in Capricorn...

Thanks for thorough links/explanations :smile:
 
In quadrant (ie the typically used) house system formats, signs can become "intercepted" in a house; in Traditionalist literature, the sign (and its ruler) on the cusp of the given house, rules that house (in your example since the cusp of the first house is in Sagittarius, then Sagittarius rules the 1st house with Jupiter as lord/dispositor) The ruling planet of the other sign in the house, is considered as minister or co-ruler of the house (in your example Saturn would be co-ruler of the 1st house)

(Note: in Equal house and in whole sign house, intercepted signs never happen; it is my personal opinion that intercepted houses are an unnatural result of theoretical models of man projected upon the circle of the sky, and I believe such results are inaccurate and misleading; nontheless, some have set great store by these "interceptions" and entire books have been written about this subject; but, I think it is all fundamentally misleading and gives incorrect delineations more often than giving accurate ones-again, this is my opinion, and should be regarded as only my opinion)
 
In quadrant (ie the typically used) house system formats, signs can become "intercepted" in a house; in Traditionalist literature, the sign (and its ruler) on the cusp of the given house, rules that house (in your example since the cusp of the first house is in Sagittarius, then Sagittarius rules the 1st house with Jupiter as lord/dispositor) The ruling planet of the other sign in the house, is considered as minister or co-ruler of the house (in your example Saturn would be co-ruler of the 1st house)

(Note: in Equal house and in whole sign house, intercepted signs never happen; it is my personal opinion that intercepted houses are an unnatural result of theoretical models of man projected upon the circle of the sky, and I believe such results are inaccurate and misleading; nontheless, some have set great store by these "interceptions" and entire books have been written about this subject; but, I think it is all fundamentally misleading and gives incorrect delineations more often than giving accurate ones-again, this is my opinion, and should be regarded as only my opinion)

Thanks dr. farr, I'll have to take a look at both systems. I normally use Porphyry because well...I simply got used to it. In my case porphyry split the houses fairly evenly in my chart, but practically skipped signs in a friend's chart. I might need to re-evaluate my own chart since there are slight differences in the degrees between equal and whole house systems. :whistling: Or maybe I'm making this far too complicated, lol.
Thanks again :smile:
 
Thanks dr. farr, I'll have to take a look at both systems. I normally use Porphyry because well...I simply got used to it. In my case porphyry split the houses fairly evenly in my chart, but practically skipped signs in a friend's chart. I might need to re-evaluate my own chart since there are slight differences in the degrees between equal and whole house systems. :whistling: Or maybe I'm making this far too complicated, lol.
Thanks again :smile:
EdgesOnCircles - this is a much debated topic! link to an identical thread by Shuter posted on this question http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42355 and another discussion entitled "Whole Signs -v- Placidus... when should each be used and Why?" posted by Jill http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46681 plus a discussion regarding "Whole Sign houses and the MC" http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42613 :smile:
 
EdgesOnCircles - this is a much debated topic! link to an identical thread by Shuter posted on this question http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42355 and another discussion entitled "Whole Signs -v- Placidus... when should each be used and Why?" posted by Jill http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46681 plus a discussion regarding "Whole Sign houses and the MC" http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42613 :smile:

Hehe, I tend to "poo-poo" placidus since it throws Pluto, Mars and the Moon in the 7th house of my chart and I cannot relate to any of it...unless you can interpret the 3 planets as taking on aspects of the 8th house since they are all closer to the ending of the 7th and the cusp of the 8th. As for Whole and Equal Houses they are very similar in my case with the only major difference being the placement of Neptune and the MC. And just as your link describes - the MC can drift. In either scenario, Neptune will ride the MC and I can relate to Neptune in the 9th and 10th houses.
Here I was trying to read other charts and I'm still a mess :sideways:
I read that the degree of placement can influence the strength of an aspect or may make certain characteristics more prominent...is there a link to sum all of the major degrees in each house and define how they are interpreted?
 
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My apologies if there have been numerous posts on this topic in the past so "link me up" if that's the case :biggrin:

Say you are reading a natal chart and the cusp of the first house is in Sagittarius (24 degrees) so that Capricorn spans the remainder of the 1st house and Aquarius makes up the 2nd house. I would still say this person is a Rising Sagittarius but is the first house ruled by Jupiter (Sagittarius) or Saturn (Capricorn)? Or is it both? Or would you determine the ruler of the 1st house based on which sign holds the most influential planets? For example, :mercury: is in Sagittarius and :saturn:, :uranus:, and :neptune: fall in Capricorn...

Thanks for thorough links/explanations :smile:
The chart ruler is still Jupiter but the planets in a house always take precedence over a mere sign. Saturn in Capricorn is particularly strong.
A complex first house though and Lord knows how you come across or appear. :happy::smile:
 
Hehe, I tend to "poo-poo" placidus since it throws Pluto, Mars and the Moon in the 7th house of my chart and I cannot relate to any of it...unless you can interpret the 3 planets as taking on aspects of the 8th house since they are all closer to the ending of the 7th and the cusp of the 8th. As for Whole and Equal Houses they are very similar in my case with the only major difference being the placement of Neptune and the MC. And just as your link describes - the MC can drift. In either scenario, Neptune will ride the MC and I can relate to Neptune in the 9th and 10th houses.
Here I was trying to read other charts and I'm still a mess :sideways:
I read that the degree of placement can influence the strength of an aspect or may make certain characteristics more prominent...is there a link to sum all of the major degrees in each house and define how they are interpreted?
We all have to take notice of what house method works for us through experience of transits for instance. I think where we are on the globe must make a difference as to what works. The planets get their influences from the aspects they make elsewhere. I have Saturn right on the cusp of the 6th house from the 5th and both house influences work for me. If that planet right on a cusp makes a connection to a planet, such as a conjunction in the next house then naturally there is a tie in, there.

There is no literature anywhere that can sum up all the major planets in each house and then interpret them. Astrology is not a blanket science, every chart has to be read individually and according to the circumstances of the person and their upbringing etc. It is the art and science of astrology and takes much expertise to define each and every chart which will have no copy or replica anywhere else for anyone else. Not even twins.
 
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I read that the degree of placement can influence the strength of an aspect or may make certain characteristics more prominent...is there a link to sum all of the major degrees in each house and define how they are interpreted?
EdgesOnCircles, there is a helpful link entitled "Zodiac Degree Influences" at http://www.skyscript.co.uk/deginf1.html that sums up EACH degree individually, by Sign, indicating whether a particular Degree in a particular Sign is either Masculine/Feminine, Light/Dark, Void, Smoky, Pitted/Deep, Lame/Deficient or of Increasing Fortune/Decreasing Fortune and the 8th column of the Table indicates the Fixed Stars located at that degree. Planets in Triplicity and Fall are also detailed.

Scrolling down the page one finds an explanation of how to read the table. The explanation includes a link to
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dignities.html

All of the above, when taken into consideration, is helpful in assessing planetary strength


I have included two attachments, one showing planetary dignity according to Ptolemy and another detailing Triplicities according to Ptolemy and Dorotheus as well as Schöner and Morin :smile:
 

Attachments

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    DIGNITIES.gif
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  • TRIPLICITIES.jpg
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In quadrant (ie the typically used) house system formats, signs can become "intercepted" in a house;

in Traditionalist literature, the sign (and its ruler) on the cusp of the given house, rules that house (in your example since the cusp of the first house is in Sagittarius, then Sagittarius rules the 1st house with Jupiter as lord/dispositor) The ruling planet of the other sign in the house, is considered as minister or co-ruler of the house (in your example Saturn would be co-ruler of the 1st house)


(Note: in Equal house and in whole sign house, intercepted signs never happen;

it is my personal opinion that intercepted houses are an unnatural result of theoretical models of man projected upon the circle of the sky, and I believe such results are inaccurate and misleading;


nontheless, some have set great store by these "interceptions" and entire books have been written about this subject;


but, I think it is all fundamentally misleading and gives incorrect delineations more often than giving accurate ones - again, this is my opinion, and should be regarded as only my opinion)
IMO you are correct dr. farr :smile:
 
Yes, Dr. Farr's ideas sum up my thoughts on this too. I particularly felt that interceptions could be an organic growth based on an artificial dissection of the sky.

Do I have this right then that traditional heritage carries that the ruler of sign is the only ruler or co-ruler of the following intercepted house? Do most traditionalists follow one mantra or the other or is there divided opinion?
 
A house containing an intercepted sign is co-ruled by the lord of that sign.

Naturally, if whole-sign houses are used, the entire question is void.

For my part I find intercepted signs highly significant. Quadrant systems are not "artificial," but reflect the actual positions of the zodiacal signs with reference to the horizon and meridian, both of which are actual measurable points in the heavens, apparent and real to even the casual observer. The differences among astrologers referent to house systems is a matter of point of view as well as personal experience.
 
(Ahem, cough, cough.)

My experience (!!!) is that intercepted houses have real meaning, and I see no reason to toss out a chart byte that can help shed light on someone's horoscope. They aren't such a huge deal if the person has no planets in an intercepted sign; but a planet in an intercepted sign just doesn't get a lot of "traction". It still operates like Saturn in Sagittarius or what have you, but the benefits one might anticipate from a particular placement just gets dimmed or dampened.

It doesn't mean somebody is going to have a rotten life. It is more analagous to the good employee who gets passed over for promotion. He still has a job and may do it very well, but just doesn't get a lot of recognition. Of course a domiciled intercepted planet making beaucoup favourable aspects, &c, &c won't be slowed down completely. However, it seems most difficult for someone with the sun in an intercepted sign-- they can't quite figure out what they are meant to be doing with their lives.

Think of it this way. If you work with "accidental house cusp rulers" or "lords", these are the planets ruling the sign on the house cusp. There is only one sign per house cusp, regardless of what else is going on in a given house. You can use either modern or traditional rulers for Scorpio, Aquarius, and Pisces; or look at both. The rule is, "The house over which a planet rules serves the purposes of the house in which that planet stands." We make sense of this by checking out the house and aspect of that house cusp ruler. Because the ruler of an intercepted sign doesn't rule any house cusps, we get a diminution of its authority over those particular areas of life.

Note that intercepted signs come in pairs: the sign plus its opposite. Then so-called "duplicate signs" also come in pairs, giving the rulers of duplicate signs extra authority over the given areas of your life.

People with really high latitude births can have multiple intercepted and duplicate signs with Placidus houses.

Normally I use Placidus, but for a high-latitude birth where you get this extreme skewing of house cusps, I would check out additional house systems such as equal house, whole sign, & some of the other unequal houses. If the planets-in-houses pretty much stay put regardless of cusp changes, I think the houses are valid.

But each person resonates more to one house system or another. Similarly, not everyone feels comfortable in the same pair of shoes. Just play around with the different systems, and eventually you will find the best fit--- for you.
 
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Historically, politics played a part in which house system astrologers used. From 16th - 18th centuries in England and France the house system of choice was determined by whether the astrologer was Protestant/Regiomontanus or Catholic/Placidus. Placidus was a Catholic monk. The house system an astrologer was loyal to made a social statement. There are at least 40 house systems for astrologers to choose from and there is no agreement about which house system 'works best', so experiment and decide for yourself:smile:
 
I agree Waybread. I just didn't want to make such a "categorical" statement in support of Quadrant houses.

There are other ways of interpreting, or "reading" the intercepted signs. The meaning of the word "intercept" is actually "to cut off in its intended path or from its intended goal or purpose." Thus, there is some interruption or deviation involved. Also, you can "look at" an intercepted sign and see that it is "enclosed, shut in, out of touch...." and a host of other meanings -- all of which may be convenient and accuurate terms in delineation.

Example: I have a recent chart for a young man whose natal Moon has extreme power in the chart (standing very near the 4th cusp). He has Pisces intercepted in the 12th. On the very day that he was arrested on serious charges, his secondary progressed Moon entered Pisces...He was "enclosed" in jail, "cut off from contact...." The odds against that coincidence of symbolism and reality are astronomical. Other chart factors, such as heavy-planet transits pointed to arrest as well and showed the causes.
 
Yes, Dr. Farr's ideas sum up my thoughts on this too. I particularly felt that interceptions could be an organic growth based on an artificial dissection of the sky.

Do I have this right then that traditional heritage carries that the ruler of sign is the only ruler or co-ruler of the following intercepted house? Do most traditionalists follow one mantra or the other or is there divided opinion?
byjove for modern astrologers there is no consensus - clearly it is evident that opinions vary dependent on personal experience...

However, the ancient system of whole sign - which is increasingly popular, has no intercepted houses :smile:
 
byjove for modern astrologers there is no consensus - clearly it is evident that opinions vary dependent on personal experience...

However, the ancient system of whole sign - which is increasingly popular, has no intercepted houses :smile:

No I mean is there consensus amongst traditionalists as to how to handle interceptions!
 
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