sexuality discussion

[gaer]

Traditionally, the Fifth house is sexuality. Modernly, it's become the Eigth house. That's the end of the story. Take whichever you like, but that's the way it is

If you are a libertine, you will have sex in a any house you like.

Obviously there is no use debating it because modernists like to plug their fingers in their ears and traditionalists are too founded in what they've read for either party to decide to budge.

That made me smile.

I'd do it this way:

very modern: 8th house, Scorpio, Pluto
somewhat modern: 8th house, Scorpio, Mars, co-ruler Pluto
more conservative: 8th house, Scorpio, Mars
traditional: 8th house, Saturn and Scorpio cosignificators

That more or less sums up the views.

For those who are learning traditional astrology, this is an excellent description of the 8th:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/temples/h8.html

Notice there are no references to sex.

And for the 5th:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/temples/h5.html

That is all about sex.

It all depends upon which kind of astrology you wish to learn and use.

 

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

There is plenty of reason why the 8th house belongs to sex, the orgasm alone is an intense experience.

I disagree. I've really yet to see a good reason for this association. Orgasm may be 'intense' but 'intensity' is something you'll find under the Eighth house only in the negative sense. Bad things happen here. Death is intense, it happens, and that's it. Loss is intense, it happens, and that's it. Orgasm is intense, sure, but it's a pleasurable intensity, Fifth house.

Shared resources is more than money.

This may be true, but the Eighth house isn't about 'shared' resources, it's someone else's. The Second/Eighth house axis is the exchanging axis becaus you're giving your goods (Second) for theirs (Eighth).

The 8th involves the resources of others and until my partner gives me his little tadpoles, and I bring my egg I will not get pregnant and will not create my child in the 5th house.

This works great for females and their Eighth houses, but what about men who receive nothing of the sort during sexual intercourse? So should there be TWO houses for sex? Or should it now depend on gender to decide which house is more appropriate?

Second house if you're male since you're giving sperm. Eighth house if you're female since you're receiving it.

Then what about homosexuality? That opens a whole new can of worms.

"Exchange" is not a good argument.

 

[sitting with saturn]

I think for this debate, it is possible that the answer can lie in the hemispheres of the chart. Considering that the IC represents extreme inner, and the DC represents extreme other, I think it is quite valid that the house of sex fits into the 5th house sitting between these two points. Considering that the MC describes the extreme outer, to think that sex fits in this quadrant of the chart seems a bit absurd.

 

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

The exchange argument for the 8th house, is not the only arguement for 8th ruling sex unlike the, "sex is supposed to be fun" argument that has often been put forth for 5th house ruling sex.

This is not the only argument for it. You clearly indicated in another post that conception is a Fifth house matter, so why is the sexual act needed for conception not in this same house? The Fifth is the Temple of Venus for crying out loud, I don't see how it doesn't fit!

I think you're putting far too much emphasis on the idea of sex. Sex is not some creepy horrible thing that once you have it there's no going back to the way things used to be. Sure, you lose your virginity, but that's it. There's not some huge personality change that augments your attitudes towards everything forever.

In some societies sex is taboo,

Yes, but the Eighth house as the house of taboo is also incorrect. "Taboo" is not something that can be fit into one house as "taboo" is a personal perspective. To some people sex may be a taboo subject, but to me it is not. Therefore, sex should not be signified by my Eighth house. It's a taboo for Penecostal women to wear pants, so then are pants signified by these women's Eighth house? I'm sure you see how quickly that idea goes down the drain when applied to other things that are taboo to specific people or groups. Astrology really doesn't care.

There's really nothing good about the Eighth house, in it the light of the sun begins to die, just as it signifies our deaths. The Eighth house represents extinguishing creation, so associating it with a procreative act just seems contradictory. You can throw whatever sorts of psychological words onto the idea of sex as you want, but moving it from the fortunate and fertile Fifth house to the unfortunately afflicted and dying Eighth house is philosophically unsound.

 

[gaer]

actually, hate to be boring but from conception to birth is not 9 months lol

It's pretty much 10 months

The unborn baby spends around 38 weeks in the womb.

The average length of pregnancy (gestation) is counted as 40 weeks. This actually adds too additional weeks, since this counts from a woman's last period, not the date of conception, which occurs (on average) two weeks later.

So even using the longer period, 40 weeks:


365.25/12=30.4375 (number of days in an average month)
40*7=280 (days in 40 weeks)
266/30.4375=9.1991786 (total days divided by length of average month).

Pregnancy is very close to 9 months, not 10, actually less if you are counting, on average, from moment of conception until birth.

Gaer

 

[memento mori]

I've had the lecture on human insticts yesterdays, therefore i feel like giving my 2 cents worth.

Regardles of the fact that sex is in these modern day societies more for fun, it's still considered a key to survival. much like any instinct it has the urge, the trigger, and the satisfaction. sexual development is certainly transformation, letting go of childhood [like shining Ray said], starting of hormonal cycles. Sex [every time, not just first] regulates production of hormones, heartrates, and many other physical reactions. It is a matter of transformation weather we do it for fun or not. The difference is in that transformation, when sex is for fun, transformation relates to production of hormones and regulating other stuff.. when its not for fun then it transforms our emotions as well.

As such i'm pretty certain it should be considered 8th house matter

anyhoo. thats my 2 cents worth

 

[OneWhoReadsTheStars]

Interesting discussion!

I've been an astrologer since 1989. I have to say that (IMHO) the 5th House is the main house to read sexual issues from, followed by the 8th House. As the 5th House is the house of LOVE GIVEN, and as the house of personal creative (and procreative) expression; one can see that it's logical to first look here for sexuality. If the ruler of the 5th House (or strong significator IN the 5th House) is under high developmental tension, there will VERY, VERY LIKELY be issues about giving love and there may very well be "sexual symptoms" relating to that.

If Neptune "signifies" the 5th House, there will likely be a strong fantasy and/or image element to sexuality...something will also likely be other than it seems relating to sexuality. If Saturn "signifies" the 5th House and is under tension, there will likely be phobias and insecurities relating to giving love and that may very well affect the sexual expression.

 

[sallyd]

'There's really nothing good about the Eighth house, in it the light of the sun begins to die, just as it signifies our deaths. The Eighth house represents extinguishing creation, so associating it with a procreative act just seems contradictory. You can throw whatever sorts of psychological words onto the idea of sex as you want, but moving it from the fortunate and fertile Fifth house to the unfortunately afflicted and dying Eighth house is philosophically unsound.'

if that is so, what happens in the 9th - 12th houses?

 

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

You are falling into your own x y z formula, by saying Venus rules 5th therefore, it should fit. I have no problem with linking planets to houses but you have always debated against it, and then use it.

No, wrong. Venus's joy in this house is what helped to make this house signify what it does. I've debated against planets that were assigned after the fact, and only then because of the Sign associated with the house due to shared anatomical regions.

Physical illness can fall into separate houses. 1st/6th/12th.

This again is incorrect, physical illness is soley a Sixth house matter, whoever told you otherwise needs to double-check their sources.

Who said sex is creepy not me. Sex is viewed differently in different cultures. What about when you body goes through sexual changes, this is linked to 8th house again through Mars/Pluto. When your body changes all types of hormones are flowing which affect your moods.

Sorry, I never meant to insinuate that you mentioned sex was anything, it was just the way I've interpreted various sources' explainations of the association. Anything that has to do with a bodily change is a First house object, not Eighth.

Once you have had sex, you are changed you can't reverse it. Like death is final, we can't bring people back to life. We learn that life is fragile, when we have sex we enter into a different realm of emotional feelings as well. So no there is no going back but that doesn't have to be viewed in a negative light. When your in a relationship and then have sex and become more intimate, the relationship changes.

Again, we're throwing psychology where psychology does not belong.

To you sex is not taboo, but in other parts of the world and in other cultures it can be.

So why even use this argument if it only applies to 'other parts of the world'? That makes no sense as to why we're making this association here to please these cultures.

Just because sex is not taboo to you does not validate the reason not to put sex in the 8th.

But this is a huge point I'm making. Sex is not taboo to me, so I don't see why it belongs here. Certainly, other people see sex as taboo, but how many? Really? I mean, obviously none of us that have participated in this discussion do, so why do we follow this idea that sex is taboo and belongs to the Eighth. Ideas of taboo are going to change depending from person to person, so the Eighth house is going to change, I'm going to be really upset when I seem some stupid astrology book say "If you personally feel sex is a taboo subject, then it's the Eighth house, if not, it's somewhere else."

If women can't wear pants than that is control Pluto -8th. The idea does not go down the drain.

No, it really does. You keep linking a planet to a house that has nothing to do with it. Try connecting it with Saturn and you'll be on the right track. It's a silly idea to assume that pants (which is the Second house) would be an Eighth house object to these women because it is 'taboo' for them to wear them in their culture. If we perpetuate this idea then astrology will have thousands of conditions going along with to where no one will be correct anymore.

Why does Astrology not care, Pluto rules taboo so as astrologers we want to understand about what is taboo, to learn and understand the planets.

Astrology isn't going to differentiate between personal and cultural taboos to be able to apply them in a house. The house of sex is the house of sex, and it's just plain wrong to switch it for something else because all of the sudden society decides to make it a taboo. If anything, I think this very point disproves itself. In the modern time, sex has become a much, much more open subject, so I don't see how that qualifies as taboo. Back in the time of astrology's development, when the traditional authors were writing, the topic of sex was much more taboo, so why then did they attribute it to the Fifth and not the Eighth when their culture put more a silence on it than ours does?

Death is not only on a physical level, this is too limiting. The 8th house is about extinguishing creations, tell that to the healers, people who have totally transformed themselves Scorpio/Pluto/8th is not all about destruction, look at the snake symbolised by Pluto which sheds it's skin for new growth, sometimes we have to let go so we can grow and transform.

I'm not arguing human psychology, mythology and symbolism with you, Ray. I'm arguing astrological philosphy, since this is an astrological discussion. And there is nothing in astrological philosophy that would ever make the change from the Fifth to the Eighth house correct.

You know, though, if you want to keep playing these cards I can play my own. Your right when you say relationships change after sex, but I don't think that matters so much. Sex is an intimate connection with someone you love deeply (or, well, supposed to be). So why then are we moving it from the Fifth house of love and romance when sex is perhaps the most intimate and loving thing we can do with someone else?

if that is so, what happens in the 9th - 12th houses?

I don't understand the question, but I think you're thinking of the houses as a psychological wheel. They are not, which again is something often cited to justify the Eighth with sex as it comes after the Seventh of relations. There is no psychological wheel, sorry to disappoint.

Read this: http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8463

Also what house do people think childbirth falls into as this is painful. Is this the 5th house also?

This is an interesting question. Technically the child's birth would be their own Ascendant, nine houses after the Fifth which signifies the act of conception. But, I don't see why the Fifth house wouldn't be the house of childbirth, a very joyous event.

 

[gaer]

You are falling into your own x y z formula, by saying Venus rules 5th therefore, it should fit.

Kai has consistently used XYZ to show this:

X=5th House Y=Leo Z=Sun

But Lilly uses:

5th House: Leo and Venus cosignificators, Venus joys there. [The confusion is that Lilly uses Venus both as the cosignifator and as the "joy".]

************

Now, for the 8th House

X=8th House Y=Scorpio Z=Mars or Pluto or both

But Lilly uses:

8th House: Scorpio and Saturn cosignificators, no planet joys there.

There is a fundamental difference that is so huge that those who follow traditional astrology and those who follow the writings of many (probably most) modern astrologers are going to be permanently at odds if they do not understand that two completely different systems/reference points are being used.

Here is the split in the road.

1) Deborah Houlding has researched the history that lead up to the system used by Lilly and others, and she has clearly shown that at least Lilly did not link sex to the 8th. And she has explained why. So if you are arguing for the idea of the 8th partially ruling sexuality, you are simply arguing against Lilly and Houlding, which I think we can agree is usually what we mean when we speak of traditional astrology.

2) Modern astrologers, particularly those who specialize in psychological astrology, use a different system. The moment you change your main concern from Saturn (cosignicator of both the 1st and 8th houses) to Aries, ruler of the 1st, and Mars/Pluto, rulers of the 8th, you have redefined everything.

The bottom line: modern rulerships and house definitions are different traditional rulerships and definitions.

Anyone who does not accept that will be locked into a circular argument without end. It's a bit like a Republican and a Democrat, in the US, trying to talk each other into switching parties.

Gaer

 

[Kaiousei no Senshi]

Mars and Pluto rule the 8th and yet if anyone brings this into discussion you tell everybody not to use the ruling planets. Then you use a Planet for a house because it has joy in that house, to explain your reasoning.

Because Mars and Pluto were assigned after the fact, and because of Scorpio (an assignment that is only about 350 years old). Venus' associations with the Fifth are at least 1500 years old, and have helped to make the house mean what it means. I can't help but bring up that fact when reviewing Fifth house significations.

You may need to check your own resources Kai, as health is not solely the 6th, I have seen conditions where planets are in the 1st are prominent whilst 6th house empty.

The First house is the house of health. The Sixth is that which afflicts that health. Certainly afflictions to the First house and its lord can show afflictions to the health of the individual. I apologize for that misunderstanding, you're quite correct.

Bodily change as in hormones flooding the body in teenage years puberty, has more to do with the 8th especially through it's rulers.

Disagree. The body is changing and the body is represented by the First house. So, bodily changes are thus the First house.

Astrology has grown in richness because of psychology. Psychology belongs with astrology, take psychology away from astrology and take nearly all of the astrology books off the shelf. Astrology is a study of human beings in my mind it describes character, motivation, emotions, desires. And psychology rules the 8th.

No, I disagree, this very discussion has shown how psychological astrology has decided it knows better and destroyed astrological tradition to make its own creative points make sense instead of basing them on study. Astrology predates psychology by like...1800 years, so who gave psychology the right to re-write the rules of astrology for its own conveinence?

Well astrology is not limited to just where you live, people from all different parts of the world use astrology. How is using the word taboo to please other cultures.

This is very true, when you say the word 'taboo' certainly everyone knows what it means. Bad things you aren't allowed to do. However, those bad things change depending from person to person and culture to culture. So, in reality, the Eighth house is like the super house where everything goes because somewhere, someone thinks it's a bad thing that shouldn't be done.

Read these articles, sex can be taboo:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4708461.stm

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...443678,00.html

http://www.kansan.com/stories/2007/s...ocieties/?news

[URL="http://www.meridianmagazine.com/fami...0202taboo.html"]http://www.meridianmagazine.com/fami...0202taboo.html[/URL]

The very existance of these articles proves that sexuality is not so much a taboo anymore. People are talking about it and posting articles about it on the internet.

Mars and Pluto rule the 8th in today's world. Saturn rules the 10th/11th. If something is taboo, it falls in the 8th because Pluto rules this house.

I'm really losing all respect for modern astrology and its inability to study and focus. I don't care what things are in 'today's world'. That doesn't make them right.

You need to broaden your scope then, sex was never suddenly made taboo, this has gone on for many years.

Ho-ho! And this is exactly my point, Ray. Today we're much more open about sex. You can find books written on the subject and everything! Back in the ancient times, I doubt you could even talk about it. For a taboo, we certainly aren't treating it the right way. So, again, tell me why the ancient authors didn't put sex in the "eighth house of taboo" if their culture saw it more taboo than ours does today? That's the be all, end all question.

Astrologers have studied the planets and houses and all it's symbolism, and concluded that the 8th house rules sex, astrologer's didn't stop studying the sky. New planets have been discovered and the houses have been explored more, psychology has come along and added a richer meaning to astrology. Back then nobody knew what the unconscious was, a lot of traditional astrologers won't accept the new planets so they are not going to accept that sex fits much better in the 8th house.

Maybe because it's not better? Astrologers stopped studying the houses and planets a long time ago and focused on merging the houses and Signs. This is the entire problem we're facing, and again, this discussion is a fantastic display of just how messed up astrology is.

I have offered astrological debate, I can't remember mentioning Mythology.

The Pluto/snake thing seemed mythologically inspired. Maybe I misunderstood? Either way, I checked several sources and couldn't find Hades associated with any creatures at all, save that apparently he owned a herd on some island. Crazy Hades don't need no cows!!

You think I am misleading people or beginners by saying the 8th is connected to sex. I learn Modern psychology astrology. You learn traditional, and I know your not a strict traditional but this is where you apply your basics of astrology to

Ray, I think you're a brilliant person, I just think you too have been misled by people who are too busy making up creative suggestions as to why things should be instead of researching what the traditional authors did. To think the traditional authors incorrect is to rip the foundation out from under astrology. If we can't trust them on the houses, how are we supposed to trust them when it comes to Signs, planets, and aspects? Suddenly, you find yourself questioning all of astrology and striking a match to all your wasted time.

Deeply and intimate are 8th house words, 5th is to date, romance wine and dine. Go to theatre go to a club, the 5th is very enjoyable, the 8th house is for sex.

I disagree. Fifth house is love and romance and everything we do to express it, from giving gifts to going out with people. So why does sex not belong here as a loving expression?

Back in the olden days astrology was seen as fated now we have choices, we understand how our inner being can affect our outside environment. We have awareness now. I do look at the wheel as psychological, your not disappointing me.

Interesting look in the differentiation. Never quite thought of it that way. I don't think, though, our sudden awareness makes things much different. At least now we know we can dodge the Saturn truck, whereas in the old days it seems people just lied down in the road and let it cream them!!

When the child is born it is joyous but labour is painful. But this needs to be explored more as I am not sure where the birth itself fits.

That is definately true. I guess it depends which you're more focused on at the moment! "Get this kid out of me!!" or "I'm so happy!!"

Seriously, though. Since the Fifth is associated with the conception, pregnancy, and overall health of our children, there would have to be some really good reason to move the birth of the child to another house, as the Fifth seems to have everything about the child locked up.

 

[Moulin]

great post Shining.

May I chip in 2 cents worth and say that l don't think we are more aware,
just simply that 'more' ARE aware than before.

 

[smilingsteph]

Sex in the context of a deeper understanding or some growth or change for the individual is seen in the 8th house, due to pluto. Also residing in the 8th is the life force of humanity, therefore sex, in all of its deep innate subconscious urges reside here too. As with sex is also other things found here that represent profound internal change, death of ideals and rebirth of ideals. Sex is not the only issue represented by this house. We can all agree that the topic related to this house is an enigma. I do believe that sexuality and things taboo are inter-related, not because sex is bad, but because sex is a deep human urge, therefore those urges can overtake one into committing or doing things that one might consider taboo; therefore I do not think that taboo and sex are the same, but innervating eachother, such as sexual urges can innervate one to do something taboo, but not always interrelating. Taboo can be alone in this house, as death, alcohol use, drug use, showing body parts, all can be taboo. Something to be taboo does not just mean something bad....In the culture that we are raised, there are always ethical standards held by that particular culture. As an individual within that culture, we base our morals on those ethical considerations or standards that are set for the most part. If we go out of those general cultural ethical standards then it is considered something taboo.Some cultures believe that a father should have sex with his daughter first before her own husband, as it is the father who makes her a woman and not her first sexual experience with her husband. Now in our ethical culture or in mine shall I say, this would be considered taboo and unethical and it demoralizes the way that my culture acts or behaves, so if this occured in my culture I would be doing something taboo.I think there is hesitancy to denote sex, which by most is seen as a loving act, to place it in the 8th house.

 

[gaer]

I'd like to add a couple ideas to this discussion.

First of all, the notion that sexuality is something that we can talk about completely freely, without taboos, is nonsense.

If we talk about what foods we prefer or eat, no problem. Unless we are talking about eating people, canabalism.

But if we all suddenly start talking explicitly about what we do in bed, and with whom, I guarantee this thread will be closed.

The fact is that a great deal of what really happens sexually in people's lives remains hidden, and although people may be more open about such matters than they used to be, more open is not the same as open.

So when we start discussing sex as it relates charts, doing any kind of research that confirms or refutes ideas that we have is horribly difficult.

If we begin studying famous people, we have two huge problems: first, do we really know what is going on in their lives? Second, can we be sure that the data we have is accurate?

Studying houses depends on absolutely rock-solid data, the exact correct birthtimes.

It's been hard enough to get exact data for my family and for friends.

I'm also not sure if we are centering on horary, natal work, or both.

What I don't see is charts. If we are talking about sexuality, we need to talk about people, their charts, and how the charts show who they are, sexually. I think that's going to be very difficult to do. I have one example that actually eager to share that shows my idea how difficulties in the 8th house can illustrate what we seem to be trying to talk about.

Gaer

 

[smilingsteph]

Gaer-
I agree with you, to talk about sex without a taboo involved being crazy is true!
Ray-
Psychology is interrelated with astrology! How can it not be. Does learning how you react, act and relate with others from your chart not leave an impression with you on a psychological level? Of course, if it didnt then why would we look at the chart at all?
Kai
If your opinion is that the 8th house is nothing for taboo and bad things occur here, then how do you feel about pluto? As this house is not just for the evil, taboo, and death. This house on the upside brings about growth, a house of change and evolution within the psyche of the self. There is a lot of power here too. Power within the self to change, make things happen, again evolve.
I dont think that death, as the end of the life and body is what is defined completely by this house either. Death can be destruction of a past belief, where growth takes hold and changes a person for the better.
I do not think that change and evolution is a bad thing, just scary things for those that are not willing to accept it.

 

[sallyd]

#65 '...Unless we are talking about eating people, canabalism...'

Betya that's an eighth house topic.....


:38:

 

[sitting with saturn]

Sex in the context of a deeper understanding or some growth or change for the individual is seen in the 8th house, due to pluto. Also residing in the 8th is the life force of humanity, therefore sex, in all of its deep innate subconscious urges reside here too. As with sex is also other things found here that represent profound internal change, death of ideals and rebirth of ideals. Sex is not the only issue represented by this house. We can all agree that the topic related to this house is an enigma. I do believe that sexuality and things taboo are inter-related, not because sex is bad, but because sex is a deep human urge, therefore those urges can overtake one into committing or doing things that one might consider taboo; therefore I do not think that taboo and sex are the same, but innervating eachother, such as sexual urges can innervate one to do something taboo, but not always interrelating. Taboo can be alone in this house, as death, alcohol use, drug use, showing body parts, all can be taboo. Something to be taboo does not just mean something bad....In the culture that we are raised, there are always ethical standards held by that particular culture. As an individual within that culture, we base our morals on those ethical considerations or standards that are set for the most part. If we go out of those general cultural ethical standards then it is considered something taboo.Some cultures believe that a father should have sex with his daughter first before her own husband, as it is the father who makes her a woman and not her first sexual experience with her husband. Now in our ethical culture or in mine shall I say, this would be considered taboo and unethical and it demoralizes the way that my culture acts or behaves, so if this occured in my culture I would be doing something taboo.I think there is hesitancy to denote sex, which by most is seen as a loving act, to place it in the 8th house.

I agree that a father having sex with his daughter is a 8th house subject. In using derivative houses you come to the 8th.

I dont think this debate is ever going to be agreed upon, by all, but I do wish that some of the modern astrologers would acknowledge astrology's roots though.

 

[gaer]

Shining Ray,

I'm writing this specifically to you, since this is going to wander, and frankly I've mostly raised questions, not answered them. But it's for everyone, and I hope it generates some positive thoughts.

This whole topic has failed to answer one practical question that I have regarding the whole subject of sex and astrology as regards natal charts.

Can we tell from charts who is addicted to sex? Who is celebate? Who is gay? Straight? Bisexual? Who is addicted to pornography? Who is a pedophile? Who is sadistic or masochistic?

I don't think we know much, yet. Not about charts.

Doesn't it make sense that the sexual drive, as one of the strongest drives we have, touches everything? Or that what we do sexually in the end touches everything else? Figuratively?

I can't help thinking outside the box. It's who I am. I think any house logically should give clues as to how an individual thinks about sex and all the things related to it. But we don't as yet have enough knowledge to identify the sexual orientation of a person from a chart. Do we? I certainly don't think so.

I'm not even going to cast a vote as to what house rules sex. I have decided that I don't care. And I will continue not to care until I see charts and data that support what has so far been nothing more than theory, as far as I can see.

However, since the big debate seems to be about the 8th and what it rules, I want to use Houlding, who obviously defends traditional astrology, as an example of some things that I think are important.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/temples/h8.html

"Traditional astrology relates the eighth house to crisis, hidden matters, anguish of mind, poison and deadly fears; yet psychological astrology often refers to it as a house of inner transformation and growth. It should be remembered that true transformation follows the burst of creativity that occurs after the lessons of this house have been properly digested."

Now, does this mean that the 8th house is entirely bad? After all, we all have one. It must serve some positive purpose. I think instead that whole idea of "death" is that the 8th shows not only death but what figuratively must die.

This belief of Houlder's is further illustrated with this next statement:

"It should be remembered that true transformation follows the burst of creativity that occurs after the lessons of this house have been properly digested. Only by facing our innermost fears are we able to overcome them and move on with the strength of experience and wisdom. But this house is not relevant to the period of growth, its concern is the inhibiting factors that stand in our way."

And finally this:

"Transits through this house often show a need to consolidate and accept the loss of elements of life that are no longer fruitful or have served their purpose; the nature of the planet will indicate how the loss is accepted."

Now, if I'm right, this next statement will either make people say, "Okay, I can see how it might be like that", or it will get me stoned.

Instead of going back and forth, back and forth about what house rules sex, why not logically think about how the 8th house would relate to sex? Wouldn't it be about change? Things we have to discard, get rid of, "put to death"? What about facing our fears regarding sex? That doesn't make the 8th about sex, just about facing fears.

As for transformation, I do think that comes from the modern habit of linking Pluto to the 8th house. I don't deny the things that are faced in the 8th lead to transformation. It's impossible to face fears without transforming. But how we transform ourselves, I think, is indicated by other houses, and I have one idea that is not at all against psychological considerations but just approaches it in a different way.

The 9th is at least one house that shows how we change ourselves.

Again, from Houlding, about the 9th

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/temples/h9.html

"Places and situations where we seek guidance and wisdom from others. Where we reach out into the unknown in search of widening our knowledge and understanding."

Now, what better way is there to put ignorant beliefs, prejudices and many other useless things to death than "widening our knowledge and understanding"?

Finally, about transformation itself, but linking it to Pluto:


http://www.skyscript.co.uk/pluto2.html

"On the outer reaches of the solar system, Pluto represents the principle of regeneration and transformation through elimination and renewal. Discovered in the period that saw the development of atomic power, the Great Depression and the birth of dreadful dictatorships, Jeff Mayo called it the symbol of the great heights or fearful depths to which man can rise or fall."

Now, obviously if this is on the Skyscript site, it at least has the "blessing" of Houlding.

So I think regeneration and transformation is fine for Pluto.

Now for Pluto in connection with Scorpio…

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/pluto1.html

Co-ruler of Scorpio, whose traditional ruler is Mars […]

SIGN OF DIGNITY SCORPIO

And here, you will see the whole concept of "cycles of death and rebirth"…

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/pluto3.html

So what's all the fuss about?

The problem is that people are automatically linking all these concepts, which are related to Pluto, to the 8th house. That's the whole debate in a nutshell.

But these Plutonian themes can be related to any house in some way or another. It's my belief, for instance, that the house in which we find Pluto shows where we have the greatest potential for self-destruction, including in the way we approach sex.

Where are the answers? Elsewhere. In my opinion. Other houses, the planets in them and aspects will show the potential for transformation. But I just don't see the 8th house as a logical place to link things that are pleasurable and postitive, that are not in some way destructive, seriously in need of change.

Just my view.

Gaer

 

[VenusInAries]

Kai I thought you spoke on another thread about reading or finding Jeffery Greens book on Pluto. I have all his books and if you want to disagree with 8th house ruling sex and Pluto not having anything to do with it. I would be curious as to you having a discussion with Mr Green, whom I am friends with. Because you would be basically telling him all his years and hard work is wrong. He is a very intelligent man that has many years experience and no offense I am more likely to follow this logical pattern on thought and research on it then you.

Also Shining was right about other houses and health. I have studied with some top astrologers and this is something we went in great detail with. I use 6th house to show chronic health problems and the opposite house 12th.. to show health issues that cause death such as cancer. And what I have learned I have zerooooo doubt about that being an accurate house to look at. So 6th house alone is not health. All the houses have a role and you can find a similar role in every house opposite to it period. 5th house romance..lovers..11th house friends. 2nd house is sexual just as well ..Taurus.. very sexual almost more so then Scorpio..money..values.. flip it and you can see the similarities..12th house is health as well.

 

[gaer]

The 5th house/Leo is the creative fire, the Sun rules this house it is like your own personal destiny, what makes you special. This is where the 5th and 11th houses need to be balanced, as you need to find your own authentic self expression, and enjoy what you do because you enjoy it you don't always need an audience to validate you. But it can be out of balance and sometimes there can be extreme self centeredness (5th/Leo) and on the other hand with Aquarius/11th house there can be too is too much focus on the group and you can lose the individual.

I think you've missed the point I've struggled so hard to make.

If you support traditional astrology and use Houlding as your source, what you have just said is simply wrong. Please note the "if" here. I'm not saying you are wrong, or the sources you are quoting are wrong. I'm pointing out a fundamental difference in the whole philosphy itself.

According to Houlding, the Sun does NOT rule the 5th house. Venus rules the house, along with Leo. And Venus also joys in the house.

XYZ says that because of the connection of Leo to the 5th, the Sun is also the ruler.

So we are dealing with two different systems, two different philosophies. This was why I tried to get away from the hole 5th/8th house argument regarding sex.

XYZ will always talk about Pluto, transformation, and sex linked to the 8th house. Period.

Those who follow the more traditional philosophy closely will always question this.

The traditionals will quote their sources to "prove" that those who claim that sex is part of the 8th is wrong.

The moderns will quote their sources to "prove" that sex IS part of the 8th.

What will the result be? A total deadlock. And that's exactly what has happened. You have not budged one inch. Kai has not budged one inch.

Insanity is continuing to do the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results...

If someone has aspects which look very sexual, you would probably talk about the themes of those planets and let the person fill you in on the details. We know generally the extremes that some aspects can go to, but we don't know how the person is expressing the aspect.

This is exactly the kind of thing I was thinking of. It would also be very useful to analyze charts of famous people, but here we run into three problems: 1) We can never sure if we are actually getting the facts; famous people are often as successful at hiding the truth as the average man on the street. 2) So often birth times are in dispute, so that makes house discussion problematical. 3) When we know facts in advance, it is very easy to make the analysis fit what we already know to be true.

I wouldn't say it is my strongest drive,

I said: "one of the strongest drives we have…"

I don't think we need to know the sexual orientation, we can look at fears, and what type of sex drive they may have. The whole chart in a sense is there when you have sex, but specifically looking at desires and wants we look at Venus and Mars.

I don't care in the least what someone's sexual orientation is. In fact, being able to predict sexual orientation could be extremely dangerous. For instance, if we found a genetic marker or many genetic markers that indicated who will be gay, some parents might choose to end pregnancies based solely on that factor. I was merely pointing out the limitations of astrology.

Aww Gaer stop sitting on the fence. (the latest rumour going around is that the 8th rules sex, go for that house ).

Sitting on the fence? I'm in another universe.

I'm actually very practical. I search for what works, for me, and then I stick with it until something proves that I am on the wrong track.

Here is an example of someone I knew very well. He had Mercury, Pluto, Sun and Moon in the 8th. If ever anyone had an 8th house emphasis, this person did. He was more obsessed with sex than anyone I've ever known. That, along with addiction to prescription drugs and the inability to say "no" to anything that made him feel good NOW destroyed his life.

Does that mean that anyone who has several planets in the 8th is going to have these same problems? Of course not.

But he also had Neptune opposing Jupiter with Mars and Uranus square to both. Now, do the 8th house placements indicate obsession with sex? Obsession in general? Or the potential for self-destruction?

This same person had problems with gambling. He gambled with everything. I'm side-stepping the whole matter of assigning house rulerships to these problems. I'm simply looking at the whole chart. It's a very strange case with Leo on the 8th house cusp and Taurus on the 5th.

Wow the 8th house gets some bad press, sometimes deservedly so because it can be painful.

The 12th is worse. And I have three planets there, including Pluto.

I like this quote by Liz Greene:

Yet the arrow of Sagittarius in the heavens is aimed directly at the heart of Scorpio, thus suggesting the centaurs enlightened vision, can illuminate those darker passions that lead us into dark destructiveness.

I think with Sagittarius there is the hope of a better tomorrow, even through the painful separations, deaths, endings, and unfair traumatic experiences which happen to us. Sagittarius is the philosopher - usually after a crisis we try to find some meaning in it. Whether we see it as gods plan or whatever, we seek answers and knowledge to lead us towards understanding.

It's one place where the traditionals and moderns don't have to debate rulership. Traditionally, Jupiter is also the cosignifator.

I wouldn't say any house can be linked with Pluto, only where Pluto is placed and aspects to other planets. And where the sign of Scorpio is.

I meant that Pluto shows up in all 12 houses, and regardless of the sign it is, it points to an area (house) where we will be forced to confront things and let go of them. Things have to die there, be replaced, or we suffer.

Something positive can come out of waste. You can grow some nice vegetables. Or feed you houseplants. Growth, Growth, Growth. There is treasure to be found. Naturally of course this follows on to the 9th but rubbish isn't always rubbish, look a little deeper.

This is why I have stressed figurative death. Literally some things have to die in order for other things to grow, to live.

Gaer