The Psychopath in the Horoscope, Part I

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A degree in psychology, while attesting to study of the human mind, is simply a diploma stating that the holder subscribes to a certain viewpoint.

Here is what Carl Jung says about "degrees in psychology": "Anyone who wants to know the human psyche will learn next to nothing from experimental psychology. He would be better advised to abandon exact science, put away his scholar's gown, bid farewell to his study, and wander with human heart through the world. There in the horrors of prisons, lunatic asylums and hospitals, in drab suburban pubs, in brothels and gambling-hells, in the salons of the elegant, the Stock Exchanges, socialist meetings, churches, revivalist gatherings and ecstatic sects, through love and hate, through the experience of passion in every form in his own body, he would reap richer stores of knowledge than text-books a foot thick could give him, and he will know how to doctor the sick with a real knowledge of the human soul." -- Carl Jung

Psychiatrists have yet to agree on the symptoms and causes of psychopathy, and even the name of the disorder has undergone several changes. The condition is highly resistant to treatment, and in fact the psychopath is essentially unreachable by any of the therapeutic methods commonly used in psychiatry.

The statement has been made in this thread that only a small percentage of psychopaths commint heinous crimes. Where do you find the term, or idea, of evil used as identical with psychopath? No one is picking on anyone, or any group. We are discussing how to see certain tendencies in any given chart. And individuals do tend to be inclined toward this or that sort of behavior, as I'm sure you are inclined to be critical of "attacks on the underdog." Or is it that you yourself have psychopathic tendencies?

Goodness...It is insensitive to discuss ideas?

Blind reliance on "experts" can lead one far from the truths of life. How many degreed psychologists sell their knowledge to the psychopathic corporations that run this world of ours so that the masses can be controlled? Rather than use their knowledge to heal, they sell their souls and manipulate people into thinking and doing what the rulers want thought and done. That seems a bit insensitive, don't you think?

I wonder if you are an experienced astrologer.
 
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greybeard,

i agree with you a degree in psychology is not much of anything to be in some more qualified position to discuss certain topics.. i suppose i am being unkind to those who have this.. most of the people i know who went to get a degree in psychology didn't know very much about themselves and were trying to figure it out thru taking courses in psychology..

the part that i liked from rushwing and to which i agree in principle with is this "Re: the argument that many people born on the same day (at the same time) with virtually identical charts...

I have to remind people that no matter how much we can use astrology to retcon people's lives and describe them and their historical motivations based on their transits, natal etc, one's chart is like genetic code. No matter how much we can say "this percentage of people tend to this"...which is true to some degree, personally I am disturbed by people using a chart to define a person as "tending towards" some psychological state.."

well, i don't know if i am disturbed, but seeing it as limiting defining people as 'tending towards some psychological state' might be a better way to describe it..

how does one describe saturn squares for example? sometimes they are an obvious handicap and sometimes a person is able to overcome the restrictions or limitations suggested by them.. either way in themselves they might tend towards a particular state and we will not know just where the person is at in relation to it and whether they have learned how to process the dynamic in a positive manner or be held back and express more aberrant behaviour out of the dynamic.. this is where i think astrology is on shaky ground.. my 2c's..

it is difficult to define people or
 
Or is it that you yourself have psychopathic tendencies?

Goodness...It becomes evil to discuss ideas??
Doesn't that show more that you have a problem with what I said?

ONE HUNDRED TIMES YES, I think it is fair to expect a certain amount of medical experience and training to use A MEDICAL LABEL in ANY CASE to DESCRIBE PEOPLE whether in astrology or no. I wouldn't expect a non-doctor to call me diabetic and believe him or her, yet astrologers are often given by their clients, a tremendous amount of leeway and power...which is exactly my point.

I don't post much on this forum because, I find two key aspects of being a real astrologer so often lacking in these discussions. 1) is prudence and the other 2) is humility.

You are free to assume that I am a psychopath, but I doubt it will make your own arguments about disregarding the basic foundations of academia and science. And I really doubt you have the the ability to identify me as a psychopath much as I doubt a non-biologist could tell me the difference between types of slime-mold.

Simply by quoting Carl Jung (who was himself an academic with years of training, published research and hard-earned prestige) does not take away the vast difference between actual research and harmful speculation.

Astrologers ARE practitioners, and if they are going to make any new connections from one field to another, they should be willing to research that other field (and be expected to perform well in that field)

What if you had an astrologer making claims that certain homeopathic remedies can be linked to a chart. I WOULD PERSONALLY be very upset, where I a client being told "take this remedy for x condition" by an astrologer who later I find HAD NO TRAINING IN HOMEOPATHY. (Oh of course, it would be my fault for not checking their credentials)

I think it is really wrong for astrologers to retcon the lives and charts of past megalomaniacs/tyrants/generally evil types and assume they were all INSERT CATCHY MENTAL HEALTH ISSUE HERE (I have witnessed this kind of discussion for many mental health issues by astrologers, whichever scapegoat looks the most scary at the time, such as BPD, or schizophrenia, or bi-polar) and then to go further and try to take these extreme examples, and apply the label to other peoples charts.

That is called an ecological fallacy.

YES IT IS HURTFUL AND WRONG...

From what I read, it seems you think it is alright for someone who lets say, worked as a bartender (thus UNDERSTANDS the human condition), to be a part-time astrologer who can label a person a psychopath merely from looking at chart and because they know Hitler had such and such in common with this person, then this person is a psycho?

I would not like to believe that anyone here could fall for that kind of quakkery, but I am not surprised that in order for someone like you to defend your own lack of knowledge and credentials to spin around and say that I have a problem with it because "I must have psychopathic tendencies"

That reveals your own lack of knowledge right there. I would highly doubt any of your own critical thinking skills from here on out.

It is quakkery, plain and simple, and anyone who thinks it is ok for non-medical practitioners to use medical terms in astrological "research" when they themselves are not certified to identify these things, to me it is the opposite of the scientific method, which strangely enough is the foundation of the very astrology that you would like to wag your wrist at currently.

This is harmful to astrology as a field of science.

I hope anyone who is reading this, is not taking these poorly made conclusions seriously. Or if they are using this discussion to inspire their own research I am highly supportive but I MUST for my own personal reasons, say that ANY SUCH CONCLUSIONS PRESENTED HERE, be taken with A LARGE AMOUNT OF SALT.

And that people here who are bandying about terms like psychopath or sociopath as if they have the authority to draw conclusions about whole groups of people based of a few examples... is just really off-base, and they should be ashamed of the way they are representing astrology.
 
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To say...."John has Tuberculosis", or "Mary suffers from Downes Syndrome" I must first have an MD certify my diagnosis? I suppose I could be sued for malpractice for saying Albert has flat feet. Normal observation reveals certain "abnormalities" to the common man on the street, whether physical or mental/psychological.

The fact that I quoted Jung, properly or improperly, might suggest to you that I have studied and continue to study psychology. It should also stimulate our thinking to see that such a highly trained and honored man as Jung would say what he said in the quotation I offered. It is Jung, not me, who seems to think a bartender might make a good healer of wounded souls. I have also noticed at least two other contributors to this thread who have given responsible and knowledgeable clinical information regarding the psychopath; they too have done some homework. I am well aware that the horoscope yields essentially the same personality typing as the much-used Briggs-Myers system, and there is another astrologer in this forum who, I believe, is doing a study of this. I really think your allegations that astrologers are poorly trained, incompetent to render judgment, is a bit wild, or ill-founded.

Personally, I never found Cassius Clay/Muhamed Ali's claim that "I am the Greatest" offensive in the least. He may have been imprudent in saying so, and lacking in humility. But he was the Greatest and had the belt to prove it. That Tiger Woods had to be rescued from his car through a smashed rear window does not affect his status as a great golfer in the least. William Lilly, in his autobiography, noted that "the best artists [astrologers] are often the worst people." While prudence and humility are highly esteemed virtues, they are not prerequisite to becoming a highly skilled astrologer. It is good not to throw the baby out with the bath water.

All human experience takes place wholly within the human mind, and no place else. Although astrological charts can be and often are interpreted from perspectives other than the psychological, natal astrology in particular is the study of the human psyche. It attempts to correlate inherent psychological traits and potentials with behaviors and their outcomes. This means that natal astrology is, at root, a system of psychology. Which is why we have been discussing psychopaths.
 
Rushwing - I am an ex=psychiatric nurse with a degree in psychiatric nursing and many years experience of looking after people with a range of mental health problems, including personality disorders. I've read quite extensively about psychopathy (am reading another book about it right now). Do I count?

I understand your wish to avoid stigmatising people, that's admirable. But psychopaths (or people with APD or whatever you want to call them) exist, they do enormous harm on the whole (I would suggest they aren't entirely in control of this, due to their brain structure) and I think discussing these issues and whether they can be discerned astrologically is entirely within the gift of this board.
 
"Psychopaths are born to be bad,according to tests on some of the most violent criminals....All have the same brain abnormalities,according to MRI scans....The research is the clearest evidence to date that psychopathy is a distinct sub-group of anti-social personality disorder...The study,published in Archives of General Psychiatry,found psychopaths had less grey matter in the anterior rostal prefrontal cortex."

London Metro newspaper,May 8,2012.

J.R.
 
i am in full agreement with inconjunct post 45 and don't know what happened to the thanks button.

i don't know enough about psycho, or socio- pathology to comment definitively, but it would seem to me that there has to be some pronounced imbalance that could be seen in the chart, probably always after the fact.. this is a discouraging part to astrology in it's present state.. we take chart data of people after the fact to do a study on it and make conclusions on the astrology of it. doing this same exercise beforehand is a much more potentially dangerous exercise as the conclusions one comes to beforehand will have bearing on your actions in the present and future sense. i think each chart has to be treated uniquely.. looking for signatures is fine.. more then a few have to be present in a chart as opposed to any one signature..

what do you do once you think you find enough astro signatures? really as i see it, all we are doing is trying to find patterns usually after the fact, as this thread will attest to.. even the example earlier in the thread that someone posted on and that i commented on are not enough to base a definitive conclusion on.. for that i suppose one needs to be a doctor as rushwing appears to be suggesting and to which i agree.. talking about the astrology of it on the other hand is fine as i see it..i didn't realize i had so much to say, dang..
 
If I may make a non-astrological observation...

In her book, "Coversions with spirits" Dolores Cannon, a past life regression hypnotist conveys information that has come through (from the spirit world) while her clients are under hypnosis for past life regression. With one client she was talking about what happens to murderers and psychopaths in the after death state or the spirit world. There is no hell for them. Souls who have done much hurt and harm to others are sent to a “hospital” like place in the spirit world where advanced masters work with them in a kind of psychotherapy. But it seems that Adolf Hitler was not sent there!

“Client (under hypnosis): Adolph Hitler was not sent to the hospital because his soul was not that damaged. He was sent to the learning portion of the plane, the retreat. He needed a time of quiet reflection because he had become – well, another metaphor – his nerves had become jangled. The problem in that lifetime was that he was an extremely creative person. He would have been a creative genius but he had no outlets for it because the Depression culture he was raised in did not allow for creative outlets. There was an inordinate amount of energy behind this creativeness, as there always is in these geniuses. It had to have another outlet somewhere and it warped his outlook on life and hence his thoughts, and it developed into the final outcome. That which happened reflected mainly on his father’s karma rather than his.”

Dolores: (This was a surprise) I wouldn’t think of it that way.

Client: It’s hard to explain. He started out with good intentions, wanting to be an artist or architect. But he was not allowed to develop in that direction, and the energy was warped. His main mistake was not being able to handle that energy in a constructive form. So he turned it into destructiveness.

Dolores: He could have found an outlet for it in a more creative form

Client: Yes he could have been an engineer, for example.

Dolores: Isn’t that passing the buck blaming the father?

Client: No. Hitler has to share part of the blame too. But it cannot be set solely upon him because the problem started with the narrow attitudes his father developed.

Dolores: He had millions killed. It seems he should have ended up in the hospital.

Client: This was the first lifetime this happened to him. He had strong creative impulses in former lifetimes also but in this one it was blocked. He didn’t handle that well – that will be his main karma – learning to handle undesirable situations. He sent orders to kill but was influenced by the people around him. He did not derive direct pleasure from killing them. He merely made it possible for people to be killed. Many of the men in the system were doing it because they wanted to."
http://books.google.co.in/books?id=...QfgvNnaAQ&ved=0CFkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
(See page 123)


So it seems that what happened was due to Hitler's father's free will and Hitler's own free will. His horoscope just showed a creative genius - how he handled that energy was up to him. He chose to handle it in a negative way. You can't blame his horoscope. The stars impel they do not compel. We all have free will - otherwise how can we have karma/payback if we are not responsible for our decisions and actions?
 
I just wanted to add one more thing and Ill shut up but this is one of the most interesting threads Ive ever seen here at AW. I thought Greybeards analysis of Hitlers chart was fascinating! And I got it too I could really see it especially the 'Uranus' explanation; brilliant! I think that you are a fine communicator, Greybeard.

Thanks for the thread!
Serafin5
 
Here's a psychopath for you....the description of his character given in the book Los Senores del Narco by Anabel Hernandez exactly fits the criteria that several of us have set forward in this thread. (Please forgive me for practicing medicine without a license.)

4 April 1957, Time Unknown, Badiraguato, Sinaloa, Mexico. I set the chart as a Speculative chart for 29 Leo on the MC, and 24 Scorpio rising. That puts Pluto right on the Midheaven, the North Node rising, and the Moon-Mars conjunction partile. An interesting feature of this chart is how all of the personal planets are one "one side" of the chart and the collective (heavy) planets on the other. The chart is disposed by the triplet of Mercury-Venus-Mars, all personal planets. The "Locomotive Pattern" (with the combust Venus in her Detriment as the Cutting Planet) is structured around the Firey Triplicity (ego; 5 planets). Five planets are retrograde -- the book lists many people who have had close contact with him saying he is "retraido", which means "inturned or introverted." Anyway, here is a known pschopath, highly successful in the world (he came from abject poverty to about #700 on the Forbes list of world's wealthiest persons, and exercises incredible power.) Have fun.

This is the chart of Joaquin "El Chapo" Guzman Loera, the jefe de jefes (boss of bosses, don of dons) of the Mexican drug cartels.

I don't know if this book has been published in English yet. It's not the sort of book I normally read, but my son-in-law was reading it and loaned it to me. It's a real eye-opener if you are interested in the drug trade, and beyond that, in how governments work in the real world and not what the press or other media would like us to believe.

I once talked with a very high-ranking American diplomat (he had been ambassador to Colombia) and suggested to him that all drugs should be made legal and available over the counter. He said he agreed, but that it was "not politically possible." I never quite understood what "not politically possible" meant. After reading this book, I understand exactly what the term means.

I was just looking back at some of the posts, and found this from Inconjunct:
Whether any of this can be discerned in the chart is the subject of Liz Greene's excellent book "The Dark Of The Soul", wherein she suggests it may be hinted at by (among other things) lunar impairments. If we look at Dahmer's chart, for instance, we see a Moon in Aries, squared by Saturn which could hint at the rather egotistical, emotionally buttoned-up person he so clearly was. In others, this may not have been so toxic, but given his parenting, the emotional climate in which he grew, and his subsequent experiences in life, it went to the bad.

If we look at Guzman's chart we find Moon conjunct Mars, the conjunction opposing Saturn. The combustion of the detrimented Venus as Cutting Planet in the Whole Pattern [this brings Venus to "High Focus" in the chart, that is, she becomes extraordinarily powerful, dominant in the personality], and also the close opposition of Mercury to Neptune.....and the odd positions of Uranus and Pluto spanning Leo, all seem to me to have a bearing on this personality. The Moon-Mars conjunction reflects directly (by aspect and by rulership) on the very powerful Sun-Venus combustion in Aries.
 
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Thank you Serafin. I'm happy that you "got it".... and we could go deeper into these charts.

My own chart contains a loose grand trine in Air, 5 planets including both Lights...and to help with explaining "mysterious, complex or occult" matters there is a biquintile Mercury-Neptune.

The comment by Inconjunct (via Liz Greene, I suppose) on Dahmer was insightful. Hitler has a different-looking but very similar setup in his chart. The Mars-Saturn square (with the extremely powerful (too-powerful) but severely afflicted Venus involved) and then the Moon in Fall (ruled by the afflicted and powerful Saturn). So it looks like Ms. Greene is onto something. But....We really do have to get into the chart as a whole. These things with Moon, Mars, Saturn, Venus serve as indicators of possibility. They say, look to see if..... And then we can look at the whole chart and see if the accumulation of evidence points strongly to the sociopathic characteristics.

The thing about this brief examination of the psychopath in the horoscope should tell us that the horoscope shows everything about a person, as potential and as probability, but only if the astrologer trains his or her mind to find and see such things. {deleted by moderator} The same is true of the sociopath -- these particular indicators (damaged Moon...) sort of raise a red flag, but to make a judgment, we have to look deeper.

Let's make up a story. Let's suppose that a client asks "Will I be a good mother`
Now our textbooks tell us the Moon is mother and mothering, and the 5th house is kids and so on.... But suppose this woman has Mercury at 24 degrees ahead of the Sun (rising before the Sun), which is near its greatest elongation. Further, Mercury is in Aries and is square Mars in Gemini (cross-sign square, mutual reception). Although the books would say nothing of this conditioning of Mercury as relevant to "mothering", doesn't it seem that such a mentality would strongly affect this woman's ability to mother a child? It will affect every aspect of her life, no matter what it is. So if we are to answer this question, we have to look at everything in a chart, because it is a whole and each element of the chart affects everything else, including character and destiny.

I really don't think it was fair of Grandma to tell me I am verbose and loquacious.
 
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PS: Sorry Greybeard but your example on whether 'she' is a good mother or not with Merc in Aries and Mars in Gemini kind of lost me. Perhaps I need more detail to visualize your example. Im sure its my Aquarian stellium that is always trying to play fair with humanity and its hard to make judgements with so little to go on.

Im sure Grandma loved you very much!
Serafin5
 
I was not abused as a child. Where did you get that idea?

I never had resources either. It took me a very long time to develop competence in astrology. I had to rely on myself to do that, and that has its good side. And now the fun really begins, because I learn more, faster, more deeply each and every day than I ever did earlier in my study. I first looked into astrology as a sceptic. When I realized that astrology holds deep truths, my dream was to become a competent astrologer. Years and years of frustration followed. Finally I gave up; I was forced to accept my mediocrity. And then, as if by magic, the windows opened. Don't give up.

6 February 1942; 1435 PST (GMT -8); Glendale, California, 118W15, 34N09. 12 Cancer 28 Ascending.

One of the keys to reading a chart (in my experience) is in fact the study of the actual structure of the horoscope. Marc Jones' descriptions of the planetary patterns (found in his book Essentials of Astrological Analysis,) put me on the path to understanding chart structure; and if we hold to the structure of the chart itself, then our own mind has a structure to hold to....

My approach to reading any particular chart may vary from day to day, depending on which way the wind is blowing. Except for one thing: I always begin my analysis of any chart on the basis of its pattern and structure. This allows us to see how the whole is put together and how the parts relate to each other. And it structures our thinking in that process.
 
.....the difference between Hitler and his contemporaries (those born on or about his birthday) lies in his time/place of birth. I use the Jones patterns heavily...

I study the pattern and structure of a chart in depth before I move on toward an interpretation...and in Hitler we find the "Splay" pattern (the misfit, the special genius, etc) with Uranus as the Reins planet....the "controlling energy" within that psychological pattern.

His time and place of birth put Uranus conjunct the Ascendant, in the12th,and the Uranus-Mercury opposition squarely on the horizon, and this is what brings the aspect to such power and prominence in his person.

In other words, it is this Accidental dignity that imbues him with the power; the positions of the other planets, by house, are strong contributing factors.

I do not mean to say that the whole Hitler phenomenon was caused only by Uranus. It is the whole gestalt of the chart, which is defined for each individual by house structure......
I was a psychiatric nurse working in forensic psychiatry in the late 1970's to early 1980's, and back then it was considered there was a difference between the sociopath and the psychopath.

The sociopath was considered the result of a poor environment. And it was also agreed that the developing character & personality of a child (human being) was unfortunately fixed by the age of three.

Whereas the psychopath was the result of damage to the brain from injury for example, or a low Apgar at birth(blue baby) perhaps, or genetic, or hormonal or a brain anomaly? The jury is still out...!

Therefore astrologically, if i were to study a chart looking for emotional disorders, i would look first to the first 3 years of life from birth, starting at the ASC. To ascertain what environment the person grew up in...
And, then i would look at indicators of physical anomalies or damage, specifically the brain - so aspects to the Moon, Mercury and Uranus.

...and both these areas are indicated in Hitler's chart.
 
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I have been, and am, very impressed with all of the contributions to this thread.

In this instance of Rahu/Moon, what seems to me to be key is not so much the aspect itself, but the idea of "mental (or emotional) instability in the mother" at birth or in the period immediately following. This same thing repeats what Inconjunct said about a "damaged Moon".

I wonder what effects (in terms of the sociopath/psychopath) this maternal state might have. I think that whether the causes of this condition are environmental or genetic is not of too much importance from the astrological viewpoint because it will show up in the chart in either case. Here we might keep in mind the distinction between essential and accidental dignities.
 
Im sorry Greybeard I could've sworn you mentioned that you had a violent sexual awakening as a female. I've been dealing with my 2 1/2 yr old neice today so its been a bit hectic for me. I appologize if I upset you.

And thank you for sharing your feelings about how you felt mediocre too.

Bless you
First of all I would like to say to Greybeard what an insightful and interesting thread, and I am learning a lot from this thread, making me think, and then some!!
When you were talking about the Military and Psychopaths, I had been thinking about why and what makes someone want to join the M.O.D, in the first instance, of course if your'e enlisted,then you are forced to join.
So I am thinking about the people who CHOOSE to, there must be many reasons, maybe they are following family footsteps, or they see it as thrilling to see other countries and be part of a big group, learn new skills, honour for their country maybe? Helping countries, in Aid etc.
They maybe come from poor areas and see the Military as a way out, I know there is a lot of grey, nothing is clear cut, black and white.
But at the end of the day, it is a job and that job is to be trained to kill other people, to be ready to fight for ones country.
Do you think the Military attracts Martyrs as well as psychopaths?

Obversation on Serrafins Quote, you may like the way Greybeard writes, but you sure didnt read it!
He doesn't say he has been abused or that he is FEMALE???

So the BIG question is Greybeard were you mediocre and a female (with a grey beard) in another life???.?.?:biggrin:
 
Not upset.
I'm an old man, although in my secret life of dreams I am sometimes a geisha famous for her skill at playing the samisen.
 
Here's psychopathy for you, noon is not correct though, but we can still look at aspects and planetary positions, I think the fixed star polis plays a major role:
 

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