Toxic relationships... and why can't we leave them?

[ElenaJ]

I thought it might be useful to examine some of the harsh aspects in synastry that attract us to another person, and even while it becomes a difficult, negative relationship, we just can't leave! Why?
It can be helpful to examine charts of well known persons, whose relationship has become public knowledge, and see what pulled them together and what went wrong and what keeps them together. Feel free to post other synastry charts that can shed light on this topic.
The focus of the thread is not on the celebrities whose charts are posted, but on the aspects in the synastry that are at work making or breaking the relationship.
To start off, here are the charts of two celebrities, who are in just that type of situation.
They married twice and divorced twice, lived together on and off between marriages, and continue to have intertwined lives.
They started living together when she was only 15 years old, and he in his twenties.
The charts are Don Johnson, everyone's heart throb from the days of Miami Vice, and Melanie Griffith, nominated for an Academy Award for her role in Working Girl, daughter of the actress Teppi Hedren.
Their only daughter, Dakota Johnson, is a well known actress today.
After their last divorce, Griffith went on to marry Antonio Banderas, and that marriage also ended in divorce.

Synastry.
In his 12th house and her 4th house is an exact Sun/Pluto conjunction. His Pluto mesmerising and controlling of her identity.
Her Venus exactly conjunct his Saturn, he is older than her, so this is a cold contact, it is also binding and in married couples it isn't unusual.
Venus is her descendent ruler.
His Moon conjunct her Neptune, he idolised her, but this helped to open the way to their long term drug and alcohol addictions.
He went into rehab, but she had more difficulty overcoming her addictions. It took him 2 years to convince her to enter rehab as well.
This is shown by the asteroid Ceres, hers is conjunct his Uranus, his is conjunct her NN. They were devoted to helping each other.
Ceres is the nurturing asteroid.
His Venus is in a 4 degree conjunction with her moon, and this aspect probably went a long way to keeping their friendship together.
His Venus opposes her Uranus, a strongly sexual attraction.

Composite
The composite has chiron exactly conjunct the 7th house cusp, this is a healing relationship.
Moon is exactly to the minute trine Pluto, transformation and growth is an important theme.
Sun/neptune/saturn conjunct shows the addiction problems, as well as the long lasting nature of the relationship.
At the same time, sun is exactly square Uranus in the 1st house, which explains their marriages, divorces, separations, and reunions.
On the ascendent, Uranus shows us they need that freedom of expression.
Ceres is conjunct mars, 5th house ruler, and their daughter plays an important role in binding their relationship, even today.
Venus on Jupiter is the fun part, without this it would be only pain, this makes it worth while.
Saturn squares the Nodes, staying tied together in this lifetime is an important Karmic necessity.

 

[ElenaJ]

Another well-known couple, Elizabeth Taylor and Richard Burton.
They also were married and divorced twice, and in spite of other marriages by both of them, their relationship remained something of an icon.
During their relationship and marriages, their heavy drug and alcohol addictions were highly publicised.
As well as their extravagant life styles and spending.
In the synastry chart, there is a Pluto conjunction, even though there were about 7 years age difference between them.
His Pluto squares her Venus/uranus. Explosive irresistible sexual attraction!
There is a sun/moon conjunction, classic perfect aspect for a happy marriage!
However, his Saturn on his sun also conjuncted her moon, giving her a sense of security but also emotional insatisfaction.
His descendent ruler Venus is conjunct Pholus, the asteroid that represents a major turning point in one's life. In Tarot it is a Tower moment.
And in fact, neither of their lives were ever the same.
There is also a moon/neptune conjunction, again fascination, they feel as though they were meant to be together. There is a psychic tie here, but just like an illusion, it can fade away. The negative side, escapism, can, and in their case did, lead to addiction.
They were known for their out of control drinking.
His Jupiter on her 2nd house cusp of money was overly generous.
He enjoyed increasing her self esteem, but Jupiter opposes her Pluto, so this was in reality a way of controlling her.
His Uranus on her NN shows their choice of an open marriage.
Because of their high profile drinking, I've included asteroid Pan, known as the "Horny Piper", it is a raw and vital energy, and aligned with Bacchus.
Her Pan opposes his Neptune, bringing out his shadow side.
Both Pan's are in square, they edged each other on towards libidinous pleasures.
His asteroid Union squares her mars, and theirs was a very volatile relationship.
Her astroid Union squares his sun/Saturn conjunction. Again, a relationship full of conflicts that touches their ego.
Also important is her Saturn on his South Node. Energy on the SN tends to dissipate, so her restraints on him over time just evaporated.

Composite.
Asteroid Union is conjunct sun, and they square moon. Drawn together, there was a basic incompatibility.
Pluto squares moon and opposes sun, control issues with both the male and the female of the relationship.
Mars conjunct Saturn, with asteroid Pholus, but square Neptune. They weren't getting anywhere, their goals just seemed to come to nothing, and the energy evaporated, in their case in fumes of alcohol.
Uranus squares asteroid Union, the marriage was on-again, off-again.
Asteroid Pan is conjunct Uranus.
Interesting also that MH is ruled by mars, which is important for their public-oriented profession.
With mars square Neptune, their reputations suffered.
In fact, he complained that he no longer had the serious roles he played before he met her, and he never really recuperated his revered professional status afterwards.
Venus in sextile with the mars/saturn conjunction kept the sexual attraction active, and gave stability to a very unusual relationship.
That Pluto in the T-square with sun and moon is very very compelling and compulsive.


.

 

[thelivingsky]

But these two did "leave" eventually after two tries at marriage. And the inability to leave may have more to do with the natal charts. Also, imability to extricate oneself from toxic situations mayhave to dowith the general level of psychological maturity and health of each individual which unfortunately, cannot be definitively seen in the charts. I would look for Eros and Psyche placements and the BML aspects especially if they aspect Pluto or the Moon.

A better couple to look at for this question might be Rudolf, the Austrian crown prince, and his mistress Maria von Vetsera who commited a double suicide rather than live without each other. Unfortunately we do not have TOB for her.

 

[thelivingsky]

Here are the charts fro Prince Rudolf and Maria von Vetsera

 

[thelivingsky]

Looking at the synastry for Maria and Rudolf there are significant Moon,s node links which like the Moon, BML or Pluto contribute to obsessions and strong attractions.

Her BML opposes his Moon
her NNode conjunct his Eros
her NNode trines his Psyche
Her Moon conjuncts his NNode
Her BML conjuncts his Uranus
her Moon squares his Mars

In the composite we see a huge very attractive grand trine with the Moon making trine to the Sun and Jupiter. the Sun and Jupiter also sextile Psyche. This is a very complelling aspect that probably made for very strong compatibility and feelings of sympatico. The Moon is conjunct Pluto - a sure sign of intensity and obsession. Eros is conjunct Uranus - strong sexual attraction and exciting sex??

Another couple worth looking at might be Scott and lacy Peterson. TOBs for both are available. Even if we don't assume that Scott murdered her, from a karmic standpoint can we say that the relationship had a very ill-fated outcome?

 

[thelivingsky]

Elena,
I just looked at where the asteroid Union falls in some relationship charts in my files. Curiously it makes no major aspects in the long standing marriages I looked at, but does make significant contacts in failed ones. have you seen this pattern also? I will look at many more to get a larger sample before coming to any conclusions. But it is interesting.

In the Don Johnson/Melanie Griffith composite Union falls on the Descendant. But Eros is conjunct Jupiter and Venus in Scorpio in H5!!
Eros and Psyche contacts IMO can be very good in an otherwise healthy chart. Their comp. chart had Moon in H6 and one of their Moon's falls in the others H6. Luminaries in H6 are almost always a fatal sign unless there is much good to offset it.

 

[ElenaJ]

Yes, very interesting comparison between them. Pity we don't have TOB for them.

Moon is conjunct Pluto

I think you mean moon square Pluto here. Very compulsive, but much more difficult to handle. Wondering if this influenced their decision to end their lives together?

Eros is conjunct Uranus - strong sexual attraction and exciting sex

Also unpredictable and erratic. In the synastry, moon opposes Uranus.

Scott and lacy Peterson.

Ill fated to say the least!

Curiously it makes no major aspects in the long standing marriages I looked at, but does make significant contacts in failed ones

I hadn't noticed this, I'll check some file charts and see if they correspond. Thanks.

Their comp. chart had Moon in H6 and one of their Moon's falls in the others H6.

During their on and off relationship they continued to battle with drug and alcohol addictions. He apparently overcome it, and worked on helping her. Moon in 6th concentrates the emotions on healing, and this was they way the relationship continued. She was more fragile, and her addictions weighed heavily in her marriage to Banderas as well.

Eros and Psyche placements and the BML

I'll re-post the charts with these inserted, let's see what happens.

I have another interesting couple ready, and I'll also re-do their charts before posting.

 

[ElenaJ]

Re-posted the Johnson/Griffith charts, and his BML is exactly on her ascendent, his Union on her Neptune.
Mesmerised her, and was mesmerised by her.
Their addictions marked the relationship.
Union asteroid with Chiron on the descendent of the composite. The relationship was a painful learning experience.

 

[thelivingsky]

Yes, his (Johnson) BML on on her (Melanie Griffith) Asc would be very tricky. And yes, their H6 Moon stuff makes sense if they were both dealing with addictions especially where, as you suggest, he was trying to help her overcome hers. She was underage when they first consummated their sexual relationship which is not the best situation. But many very young actors/actresses fall into very compromising or predatory or exploitative situations.

 

[thelivingsky]

Elena,
I haven't used Union or Pan yet so I'll take deeper dive with those this weekend. Curiously I have look at Juno in many (dozens) of my rel.charts and it does not make many significant aspects. I have noticed that in a natal , a significant Juno creates a strong desire to be in a committed marriage.

I tend to place much more emphasis on planetary aspects than any asteroids or minor planets and if a situation can be explained by the planetary stuff then I rely on that . But I do use Davison charts for couples who were born great distances apart or where there is a significant age difference ( more than 7-8 years)

In the Taylor/Burton composite chart the t-square of Sun-Moon-Pluto is IMO enough to explain most of their difficulty. A difficult Pluto often expresses as an urge for confrontation as well as power struggles. Sun and Moon are the most important planets and they are in conflict. The Sun is the life force of the relationship but it is also hampered by being in H12 adding hidden subconscious motivations. the Moon has not a single good supporting aspect. Both in difficult aspect to Pluto . Composite T-squares that involve either Sun or Moon with any of the outer planets including Saturn are almost always fatal. Then that Mars square Uranus adds explosiveness and impulsivity.

I read that when they stayed in hotels they would rent the suite above and below their own because they had so many issues with hotel management in the past over their very loud nasty brawls. other hotel guests would complain. Yet one never knows how much we hear about celebrities is actually true.

 

[ElenaJ]

I haven't used Union

Looking at some charts last night I haven't seen any real connection.

n a natal , a significant Juno creates a strong desire to be in a committed marriage.

Yes, found this as well. Your original hypothesis, that natal charts have a stronger impact on the relationship, is quite true. No matter how good a relationship might be, if an individual is not really born to be in a relationship, there will be no holding it together.

A difficult Pluto often expresses as an urge for confrontation as well as power struggles.

Very much so. Who is the boss? One always trying to control the other can be very wearing.

the Moon has not a single good supporting aspect.

A fundamental element for keeping one emotionally in a relationship. If it is missing, the person wanders off.

Mars square Uranus adds explosiveness and impulsivity.

This contact really needs other positive aspects to balance it out, it can be brutal.

Yet one never knows how much we hear about celebrities is actually true.

Exactly.

 

[thelivingsky]

Elena, I just looked at 12 more composites adding Union using an orb of 4 degrees.. I didn't look at synastry. It doesn't show up in conjunction to Sun or moon except in one and that is Michael Douglas and Catherine Zeta Jones. . One has it conjunct a NNode and Mars and that is the Scott/Laci Peterson chart so it falls inthat awful t-square of Nodes, Mars, Pluto and Saturn. However when I looked at parallels and contra parallels using a 1 degree orb it shows up conjunct Chiron four times. This could be because the orbit of Union is follows closely to that of Chiron.

It is conjunct Uranus in Brad/Pitt/Angelina chart. It is conjunct Neptune inthe Charles/Diana chart, and conjunct Pluto in the Kevin Bacon/Kyra Sedgewick chart ( this last couple have been married a long time.) it is opposite Mars and Eros in Johnny Cash/June Carter, it is opposite the Sun in Jane Fonda/Ted Turner, opposite Pluto in Paul McCartney/Linda Eastman.

 

[ElenaJ]

This could be because the orbit of Union is follows closely to that of Chiron.

I'm not seeing this in charts. Neither in natal nor in composite.

It is conjunct Uranus in Brad/Pitt/Angelina chart. It is conjunct Neptune inthe Charles/Diana chart, and conjunct Pluto in the Kevin Bacon/Kyra Sedgewick chart ( this last couple have been married a long time.) it is opposite Mars and Eros in Johnny Cash/June Carter, it is opposite the Sun in Jane Fonda/Ted Turner, opposite Pluto in Paul McCartney/Linda Eastman.

I wonder if the contact that Union makes with planets in the composite, will set the theme.
Pitt/Jolie, Union conjunct Uranus, made it fascinating, started like a spark out of no where and ended suddenly.
Charles/Diana, Union conjunct neptune, both of them being deluded by the marriage, and misunderstandings galore.
Fonda/Turner union opposite sun, egos playing out.
McCartney/Eastman Union opposing Pluto.... a strong tie, ended with her death from cancer.
Not familiar with the others.
I checked some personal composites involving my natal, and it does seem to represent the type of relationship, the "theme".

 

[thelivingsky]

This sounds plausible and very interesting.

 

[ElenaJ]

As a counter-balance test, here is a couple with some quite heavy aspects in their synastry and composite, who apparently are very happy together. At least publicly, but in a way that seems spontaneous and sincere.
Why does it work?
She is Zara Tindall, the daughter of the Princess Royal, Anne, and her grandmother is Queen Elizabeth II.
He is Mike Tindall, extremely successful sportsman, ex-professional rugby player.
Her TOB is well documented but unfortunately his is not known, so we can't refer to houses in the composite.
We can, however, overlay his chart on hers in the synastry.
In the synastry first off there is a very close tie with his moon on her descendent, where she has a wide Sun/Mars conjunction. So we know she needs a strong, outgoing partner who likes the spotlight, which fits him very well with his scorpio stellium.
On her ascendent is his Venus/mars/uranus conjunction. This is important because Venus rules her descendent.
Her scorpio rising matches his stellium.
However, her Sun/Mars conjunct his Moon also opposes his scorpio stellium.
There is a close Mars/Mars opposition. Lots of sparks and competition to be expected!
Then, a Sun/Pluto conjunction, a Pluto/Moon conjunction, so we have obsessive/possessive Pluto symbolically effecting both the sun (male energy) and the moon (female energy) in the relationship.
Lilith is on mercury, Jupiter on North Node and North Node on Jupiter, which might be the ties that bind, along with the ascendent/descendent contacts.
Eros on South Node, shows an energy that will be waning.
His Saturn on her MH is interesting.
Her Union, near her neptune, is in a tight square with his Nodes.
His Union, exactly square his Venus, is square her Sun.

Looking at the composite to see how this all plays out, there is a Sun/Moon conjunction, ideal for a marriage, but here it doesn't make any aspect in the chart except for a wide opposition to mars.
Venus conjunct Mercury is a lovely compatibility to have, but it squares Uranus and trines Neptune.
Union is near Pluto! This is a powerful tie between them.
Not easy to break this one, could this be the key to why it is a strong long lasting relationship?
Psyche on Saturn, with BML close by. In their case can we assume Saturn adds stability?
NN is on Jupiter, which does make for a bundle of happiness, joy and good will.
So the difficult aspects (sun and moon with Pluto) seem to be out weighed by the easy ones.
However, we know that aspects don't "average" out, they each make themselves known separately. The important thing is to have a strong enough balance so the "happy" ones can overcome the "negative" ones when they are activated.

 

[BlackTulip123]

I have to say, from my experience, being addicted to a toxic relationship generally means there is a gap elsewhere. However much I loved them, and I can say hand on heart that I did, the thought of them not being in my head or seeing them about was just too much to cope with.

 

[sdh3]

Very quickly: note the birds in the natal charts

MELANIE

Chiron at 14AQ40 = Aquarius 15 (Two lovebirds sitting on a fence)

plus

Sun @ 17LE = Leo 18 (A teacher of chemistry) Note: One definition of chemistry is "The mutual attraction between two people"

DON:

Sun at 23SG54 = Sagittarius 24 (A bluebird standing at the door of the house)
Mercury at 7CP = Capricorn 8 (Birds in the house singing happily)
Venus @ 8AQ = Aquarius 9 (A flag turned into an eagle)

Also, he has:

Uranus @ 3CA = Cancer 4 (A cat arguing with a mouse). Note: this can be a really bad indicator in some couples.


About bluebirds: symbolic meanings can vary across different cultures, but the common thread is that bluebirds generally symbolize something positive, uplifting and hopeful, happiness and joy.

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