USA charts - the ultimate debate

[Bjorkstrand]

Read your history books. USA did not want to go into WW1 + WW2. read it. It has LIBRA rising at 0°. Of course if you go against them u r in DEEP trouble. Why? sun conjuncts Sirius + Canopus.

 

[sdh3]

Just discovered this thread. Fascinated and will look more deeply into it. In the meantime, a quick question if I may. Have any charts in this thread had a Sagittarius rising chart with the ascendant at 22 Sagittarius ?

 

[John Human]

Hi all,

Well to join in the debate, for me it has to be closer to the 2.13am chart. Why? because the MA/UR midpoint is at 14 of the mutables at this time whereas later at 5.10pm it slips into 15.

One of the most accurate times we have for a major event affecting the nation is the WTC 9/11 when the Asc, Mercury and Saturn were all at 14 degrees. Any planet at the same degree - whatever the angle - is resonating to the others. The Asc and Mercury were 120 degrees at 14 of air. In this case Saturn was at 14 Gemini exactly conjunct (to within a few seconds of arc) the MA/UR Ebertin says of SA=MA/UR says "violent destruction"

I notice 14 degrees in many of my charts for events in US history and it appears with amazing regularity, although one can't deny that it might do anyway with Saturn at 14 degrees whichever time you choose for 4 July charts

Leaving the 14 degrees aside though, I did note that when the spacecraft Challenger was so publicly lost on Jan 28 1986 Saturn was at 7.42 Sag - exactly opposite the 2.13am asc and just into the very public 7th

So, my vote goes with 2.13am

x
PS 12 Oct 1492 Discovery by Columbus reveals some interesting midpoints at 14 mutables too

http://collaboratingwithfate.blogspot.com

I will suggest that, from a historical perspective, the 2:13 a.m. chart doesn't make any sense as the birth chart for the USA, but it could serve as the birth chart of the stock market.

Likewise, from a historical perspective (my 200-page Master's thesis focused on the origin of the ideas in the Declaration of Independence), the Sibly chart appears to be deliberately fraudulent, based on the long-exposed myth of a signing ceremony on July 4.

The Declaration of Independence was Part 2. The original Independence resolution, in which royal authority was "totally suppressed" while instructing the 13 former colonies to write their constitutions, was passed on May 15. This Independence resolution, drafted by John Adams, includes an anti-Lockean definition of "happiness."

 

[socrates]

Ok
1702 neptune saturn conj7nction in aries- russia defeats the swedes
In the ptevious conjunction they defeated the Mongols
Queen Anns war with european fighting for power in the US
1776 neptune 8n aries uranus in gemini -civil war
1941 uranus in gemini World war
2025 neptune saturn in aries and Uranus in gemini. Trump is talking about taking Greenland,Canada ,the gulf.
Also two world wars started with south node conjunct a malefic. Soon north node conjunct saturn will bring peace to Ukraine but in july at the the time of the connunctions previously mentioned, mars will be conj the SN to add insult to injury

 

[John Human]

Ok
1702 neptune saturn conj7nction in aries- russia defeats the swedes
In the ptevious conjunction they defeated the Mongols
Queen Anns war with european fighting for power in the US
1776 neptune 8n aries uranus in gemini -civil war
1941 uranus in gemini World war
2025 neptune saturn in aries and Uranus in gemini. Trump is talking about taking Greenland,Canada ,the gulf.
Also two world wars started with south node conjunct a malefic. Soon north node conjunct saturn will bring peace to Ukraine but in july at the the time of the connunctions previously mentioned, mars will be conj the SN to add insult to injury

-
Your post includes world events that don't relate to the USA and its horoscope. It also refers to events that took place while an outer planet was in a particular sign. This seems far to vague to draw specific conclusions.
I will suggest that, for any proposed horoscope, a critical astrological test is to show historical correlations with outer-planet transits to the angles. Whatever horoscope we use, since 1776 there has been one Eris transit to an angle, 4 or 5 Pluto transits, and 9 or so Neptune transits. What happened during each and every one of these transits to an angle in your preferred U.S. horoscope?

 

[John Human]

I just started a new thread with 30 posts on astrological correlations with the May 15, 1776 U.S. horoscope, here:
https://astrologyweekly.com/threads/may-15-the-correct-u-s-horoscope.152968/

 

[FraterAC]

Slight reprise

• 
  #353

 

[John Human]

There's a big difference between a determination to achieve independence from England as group of like-minded colonies, and deciding to become a unified nation.

So, the 4th of July works for "Independence Day", but not for the Founding date for the country as "One Nation, Indivisible", which is what the pledge is about.

-
The May 15 U.S. horoscope shows the South Node on the Aquarius Nadir ("the many") and the North Node on the Leo Midheaven (" e pluribus unum"). On May 15 the Continental Congress, comprised of delegates from the assembled people of the various colonies, formally broke with the British Crown and simultaneously created the 13 states, calling on them to write their constitutions, which they did.

 

[John Human]

I've reconstructed the three charts Gary Lorentzen uses for the USA. I'd request before everyone piles on me please take the time to look up the significance of the dates for yourselves, and you may see why Prof. L. uses the dates he does. Fair enough?
First, the vote for independence:
View attachment 104605

-
I will suggest that it wasn’t a vote for independence on July 1, because independence had already been achieved on May 15 (see my posts above).

 

[JUPITERASC]

-
The May 15 U.S. horoscope shows the South Node on the Aquarius Nadir ("the many") and the North Node on the Leo Midheaven (" e pluribus unum"). On May 15 the Continental Congress, comprised of delegates from the assembled people of the various colonies, formally broke with the British Crown and simultaneously created the 13 states, calling on them to write their constitutions, which they did.

Formally - not informally

.

 

[JUPITERASC]

-
I will suggest that it wasn’t a vote for independence on July 1, because independence had already been achieved on May 15 (see my posts above).

great comment
.

 

[John Human]

Formally - not informally

.

-
Yes indeed: the May 1776 independence resolution called on all the colonoes to "totally suppress" all authority under the British Crown, which had the effect of closing all the courts (because the judges had sworn oaths to the King) and overthrowing the stick-in-the-mud proprietary government in Pennsylvania. The actual "birth" of the U.S.A was a messy affair, not well-suited to patriotic propaganda. The Declaration of Independence (the "baptism" or public presentation of the recently-born baby) was much better for that. Historians of the American Revolution are well aware of the May 1776 independence resolution, but in general, people don't want or need to know about it, and that has confused astrologers for well over a century.

 

[JUPITERASC]

-
Yes indeed: the May 1776 independence resolution called on all the colonoes to "totally suppress" all authority under the British Crown, which had the effect of closing all the courts (because the judges had sworn oaths to the King) and overthrowing the stick-in-the-mud proprietary government in Pennsylvania.

The actual "birth" of the U.S.A was a messy affair, not well-suited to patriotic propaganda.

Quite

The Declaration of Independence (the "baptism" or public presentation of the recently-born baby) was much better for that. Historians of the American Revolution are well aware of the May 1776 independence resolution, but in general, people don't want or need to know about it, and that has confused astrologers for well over a century.

very informative & interesting - thank you


.

 

[david starling]

The Constitutional Convention of 1787, where the Preamble defined the purpose of the new nation, is a possible origin date.

First and foremost was UNITY.

Unity was preserved at GREAT cost due to the Civil War.

 

[John Human]

The Constitutional Convention of 1787, where the Preamble defined the purpose of the new nation, is a possible origin date.

First and foremost was UNITY.

Unity was preserved at GREAT cost due to the Civil War.

-
Perhaps you're both right and wrong. The U.S.A. was emphatically not a "nation" but a "union" that ante-dated the federal government set up in 1787. It is a common supposition that we became a "nation" with federal citizenship via the 14th Amendment.

But regarding the Constitution as a possible origin date, do you have a proposed horoscope where the transits of Eris, Pluto and Neptune to the angles can be compared with historical events?

This is what I have done with the May 15 U.S. horoscope; see
https://astrologyweekly.com/threads/may-15-the-correct-u-s-horoscope.152968/

 

[david starling]

-
Perhaps you're both right and wrong. The U.S.A. was emphatically not a "nation" but a "union" that ante-dated the federal government set up in 1787. It is a common supposition that we became a "nation" with federal citizenship via the 14th Amendment.

But regarding the Constitution as a possible origin date, do you have a proposed horoscope where the transits of Eris, Pluto and Neptune to the angles can be compared with historical events?

This is what I have done with the May 15 U.S. horoscope; see
https://astrologyweekly.com/threads/may-15-the-correct-u-s-horoscope.152968/

Do we have a date and time for when the Constitution became the "Law of the Land"?

 

[John Human]

Ah, there's the problem. Did the Constitution automatically go into effect when the ninth state ratified? (Um, yes, or that's what people thought, at least.) Is that the right time for a Constitutional horoscope? If so, that would be June 21, 1788, with New Hampshirebeing the ninth state to ratify. A grab-bag of info on the constitutional process is here:
https://libguides.libraries.wsu.edu...cation of the Constitution,1789 to early 1791.

Is there a horoscope for this date (or any other peopoaed date for the Constitution) that responds well to outer-planet transits to its angles?

 

[John Human]

Ah, there's the problem. Did the Constitution automatically go into effect when the ninth state ratified? (Um, yes, or that's what people thought, at least.) Is that the right time for a Constitutional horoscope? If so, that would be June 21, 1788, with New Hampshirebeing the ninth state to ratify. A grab-bag of info on the constitutional process is here:
https://libguides.libraries.wsu.edu/c.php?g=294183&p=1959701#:~:text=summary-,States' Ratification of the Constitution,1789 to early 1791.

Is there a horoscope for this date (or any other peopoaed date for the Constitution) that responds well to outer-planet transits to its angles?

-
However, there's a later date (see that link above), when the Continal Congress formally recognized that the Constitution was the law of the land. One could also try a date for when the final version of the Constitution was adopted by the Convention.

 

[John Human]

-
However, there's a later date (see that link above), when the Continal Congress formally recognized that the Constitution was the law of the land. One could also try a date for when the final version of the Constitution was adopted by the Convention.

-
It seems to me that the signing ceremony for the Constitution makes the best sense. Here's the horoscope, although I see no reason for the chosen time:

 

[david starling]

-
It seems to me that the signing ceremony for the Constitution makes the best sense. Here's the horoscope, although I see no reason for the chosen time:

[IMO]This one looks good, as a characterization of the country. But. I haven't checked it for transits during important events.

Notice that the USA Pluto return is still in the future.