Venus debilitated in Virgo???

[dr. farr]

I accept that Venus is in an unfriendly atmosphere when posited in Virgo, but this would be modified by the decan it is in (I use the very old time Manilius Decans) + the degree occupied (monomoiria) plus the duodenary occupied plus the term connection (used by many of our traditionalist friends) plus any star connections plus Venus aspectual and declinational relationships, so that it is POSSIBLE that Venus in its fall in Virgo could actually exert an overall very benefic influence,depending upon these other influences upon it in the specific chart.
Remember that domicile/detriment/exaltation/fall = ONLY ONE OF SEVERAL FACTORS showing the NET CONDITION of a given planet In each particular chart.

 

[IleneK]

I accept that Venus is in an unfriendly atmosphere when posited in Virgo, but this would be modified by the decan it is in (I use the very old time Manilius Decans) + the degree occupied (monomoiria) plus the duodenary occupied plus the term connection (used by many of our traditionalist friends) plus any star connections plus Venus aspectual and declinational relationships, so that it is POSSIBLE that Venus in its fall in Virgo could actually exert an overall very benefic influence,depending upon these other influences upon it in the specific chart.
Remember that domicile/detriment/exaltation/fall = ONLY ONE OF SEVERAL FACTORS showing the NET CONDITION of a given planet In each particular chart.

I would even expand even further. Venus is the triciplicity ruler earth and water according to the Dorotheus Triplicility Lords. And it may be dignified by term depending upon its degree position. Triplicity dignity is not insignificant, and if Venus is in dignity by term, it can have a great amount of strength and authority in how it and the house it rules are expressed.
One size does not fit all.

 

[sinhtheslumberingdragon]

Technically, in traditional western astrology, Venus is not debilitated in Virgo but in its fall. Venus is debilitated in Scorpio (opposite Taurus) and Aries (opposite Libra.) Venus is exalted in Pisces, hence its fall in the opposite sign of Virgo.

But I don't think Venus in Virgo in and of itself will explain difficulties with women and other Venusian matters. I think you also have to look at aspects and house placements.

I would argue fall is worse than detriment, and both are debilitated.
Venus is somewhat shielded in Virgo - ruler of the earth triplicity, so it is never peregine in Virgo
Virgo also agrees with Venus - both are feminine signs, and both are dry so it's not a terrible situation, still pretty bad.
Of course, if venus were in fall and ruling 12/6/8, it would become an accidental malefic - which is no good.

 

[dr. farr]

I agree-fall is more afflictive to a planet than detriment.
I follow the dignities & debilities because they have proven themselves to me as real helps in delineation; however, I have never seen enough evidence in practice that essential dignities are somehow more powerful or significant than accidental dignities-so FOR ME I value them the same (I am not saying that anyone elso should do so-please follow your own course)

 

[david starling]

What is it about Mercury's domicile that "cramps" Venus' natural style?

And, what is it about Venus' domicile that "cramps" Mercury's natural style?

What qualities does Virgo impart that doesn't "fit" Venus?

And, what qualities does Libra impart that doesn't "fit" Mercury?

We should be looking at it both ways, since it's a "trading places" situation.

 

[david starling]

Having Venus in Aquarius, I tend to "think outside the box", and "push the envelope". However, the box is still important as a more conventional, agreed-upon way of looking at things.

 

[sinhtheslumberingdragon]

What is it about Mercury's domicile that "cramps" Venus' natural style?

And, what is it about Venus' domicile that "cramps" Mercury's natural style?

What qualities does Virgo impart that doesn't "fit" Venus?

And, what qualities does Libra impart that doesn't "fit" Mercury?

We should be looking at it both ways, since it's a "trading places" situation.

Libra is fine for Mercury - air sign and cardinal, very nice for Mercury
Virgo is just the opposite of Pisces - where Venus is exalted (most high), so it follows that Venus in Virgo is cast down (humiliated)

 

[david starling]

Libra is fine for Mercury - air sign and cardinal, very nice for Mercury
Virgo is just the opposite of Pisces - where Venus is exalted (most high), so it follows that Venus in Virgo is cast down (humiliated)

Too "formulaic", imo. Both of Mercury's domiciles are Mutable--Mercury's free to change things up, and play different roles. Libra's too unidirectional for Mercury.

Virgo's not sensual or aesthetic enough for Venus.

 

[sinhtheslumberingdragon]

Too "formulaic", imo. Both of Mercury's domiciles are Mutable--Mercury's free to change things up, and play different roles. Libra's too unidirectional for Mercury.

Virgo's not sensual or aesthetic enough for Venus.

We follow different schools of thought.

Virgo does have many things in common with Venus (element, gender, etc) but it is the opposition of where Venus is most high - Pisces, so it's where it is most low.

 

[david starling]

We follow different schools of thought.

Virgo does have many things in common with Venus (element, gender, etc) but it is the opposition of where Venus is most high - Pisces, so it's where it is most low.

That's the conventional formula. I find it lacks critical thinking. It's a "one pattern fits all" approach. But, if you're happy with it, that's fine for you.

 

[david starling]

We follow different schools of thought.

Virgo does have many things in common with Venus (element, gender, etc) but it is the opposition of where Venus is most high - Pisces, so it's where it is most low.

All right, suppose this pattern is correct. Now please define exactly what "in it's Fall" means in actual effect.

For example, in this same pattern, the Sun is "Exalted" in Aries, which would mean it's "in its Fall" in Libra. Does this mean there's something severely afflicted about having the Sun in Libra in a natal chart? Also, are there just a few specific degrees where Exaltation and Fall occurs, or does that include the entire signs involved?

 

[dr. farr]

here’s my take; crudely, Virgo is a virgin and Venus “ain’t one”

more exactly I think it has to originally be due to the ecliptic degrees as translated into equatorial degrees and the position of the planet in the given sign re to the equator/horizon, again as relative to the northern hemisphere perspective from which all major systems of astrology developed; I certainly do not think that the matter has anything to do with mercury vs venus (my opinion)

 

[bluerosepetals]

Yes, Venus is debilitated in Virgo, however the results you are going to get depend on a lot more than that. You can never look at a planet standing on its own, you have to see which house is it in and how it relates to other planets. In Vedic it's also important which Nakshatra it falls in.

Now I am not sure if you are asking which of these is more "correct" or? It depends on who you ask. I personally lean more towards Vedic and Sidereal system, but that's because it seems to work better for me. The signs feel more like who I am. Study both of your charts - not just one placement, instead read it as a whole. See what works better for you. In theory both systems work, but use what is simpler and more intuitive for you.

 

[david starling]

here’s my take; crudely, Virgo is a virgin and Venus “ain’t one”

more exactly I think it has to originally be due to the ecliptic degrees as translated into equatorial degrees and the position of the planet in the given sign re to the equator/horizon, again as relative to the northern hemisphere perspective from which all major systems of astrology developed; I certainly do not think that the matter has anything to do with mercury vs venus (my opinion)

That's archetypal, based mostly on Greco-Romans. Who decided the constellation somehow represents a Virgin in the first place? The Babylonians saw the constellation as representing a woman holding grain and standing in a plowed furrow. She was not only married, she was otherwise rarely depicted without her husband.

My point is, that Virgo is Mercury's comfort zone, and Libra is comfortable for Venus. The qualities of Virgo don't fit the nature of Venus, and the qualities of Libra don't fit Mercury. So, they're uncomfortable in each other's domiciles.

Mercury was god of thieves, for example, and Libra is about the balance scales of law!

And I really don't envision Venus as plowing a field and harvesting crops!

 

[dr. farr]

Who decided the constellation somehow represents a Virgin in the first place? The Babylonians saw the constellation as representing a woman holding grain and standing in a plowed furrow.

And I really don't envision Venus as plowing a field and harvesting crops!

Good points!
Actually though I do think that the origin of planetary falls had to do with the equator & the placement of planets in signs based on equatorial degrees relative to northern hemisphere horizon perceptions via visual observation; I did a thread outlining this here on AW many years ago (can’t find it now). I think (my opinion) that what started out as visual observation relative to the horizon became encrusted over the centuries by a plethora first of myth-analogies and later of theoretical explanations (the Greeks were 1st class theoreticians)

 

[sinhtheslumberingdragon]

All right, suppose this pattern is correct. Now please define exactly what "in it's Fall" means in actual effect.

For example, in this same pattern, the Sun is "Exalted" in Aries, which would mean it's "in its Fall" in Libra. Does this mean there's something severely afflicted about having the Sun in Libra in a natal chart? Also, are there just a few specific degrees where Exaltation and Fall occurs, or does that include the entire signs involved?

The results of a planet in fall are very contextual.
For example, if Venus is in fall, and it is ruling malefic houses, it is conisdered to be a functional malefic - whatever Venus provides and creates will harm the native. This is not the case if Venus was not afflicted.
Venus in fall on angle, say the MC, will still produce a career, but it will likely eventually destroy it. This is because Venus is by nature benefic, but by being in fall it has a hard time fulfilling it's promise in the natal chart.
Of course, it could work out well if it was assisted by benefics (moon/jupiter)but again this needs to be analyzed in context.

And yes, that is the general pattern - where a planet is most elevated (exalted) is a place of strength, vs when it is humilated (fall, 180 degrees from the exact exaltation) is a place of weakness

 

[JUPITERASC]

We follow different schools of thought.

Virgo does have many things in common with Venus (element, gender, etc) but it is the opposition of where Venus is most high - Pisces, so it's where it is most low.

The image of the Maiden is feminine, nocturnal
Domicile and exaltation of Mercury
and
depression of Venus
indicates exchanges, affairs, eloquence, trade and mysticism.
Depending on the placement of the houseruler
the Maiden is charming in conversation
useful, industrious, pure, modest, well-educated, lovers of learning

The image of the Fishes is feminine, nocturnal, fertile, passionate
Domicile of Jupiter
exaltation of Venus
depression of Mercury
Depending on the placement of the houseruler
those born under the influence of Pisces are awkward, complicated
because of the directions of the Fishes, changeable, restless, wandering, unsteady

Such, then, are the observations of the effects of the stars as made by our predecessors..
Bibliography:
Ludwich, A. (Ed.). (1877). Maximi et Ammonis carminum De actionum auspiciis reliquiae:
accedunt Anecdota astrologica. BG Teubneri. Retrieved from https://archive.org/details/maximietammonisc00ludw/page/n3
Manilius, & Goold, G. P. (1985). Astronomica. BG Teubner.
Robbins, F. E. (1940). Ptolemy: Tetrabiblos. William Heinmann, London.
Retrieved from http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Ptolemy/Tetrabiblos/home.html
Schmidt, R. The Astrological Record of the Early Greek Sages. Project Hindsight.
Valens, V. Anthologia. Translated by Mark Riley.
Retrieved from https://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/Vettius Valens entire.pdf

Venus is moistening and moderately heating, benefic, feminine and nocturnal.
admired, passionate, gracious, outgoing and friendly.
Venus controls desire, love, public benefactors, wearing of golden crowns and ornaments
merriment, friendship, companionship, acquisition of additional property,
agreements on favorable terms, marriages, refined arts, pleasant sounds
music-making, sweet singing, beauty of form, painting, mixing of colours, embroidery
perfume making, inventors, the masters of crafts, working with gold and precious stones
haircutters, cleanliness, plays, giving and receiving, laughter and rejoicing
order, aquatic animals, the livelihood of the mother, assistance from women
remarkable reputations, nourishment and pleasure
multi-coloured adornments, precious stones, golden colours and greasy tastes.

Mercury is alternating between moistening and drying, and common
having excess of moist when morning rising
having excess of dry when evening rising
youthful and athletic, articulate, versatile
intelligent, tricky, busy, curious and efficient.
Mercury controls law, intelligence, speech, reason, commerce, youth, education, writing, games
disputation, brotherhood, interpretation, messengers, numbers, calculation, geometry
deception, theft, community, exercise, service, profit, inventions, attendance, athletics, wrestling
hearing, declamation, certification, supervision, weighing and measuring, testing coins
versatility, critical thinking, judgement, marketing, banking
modelers, sculptors, doctors, teachers, lawyers, orators, philosophers
architects, musicians, weight lifters, gamblers, mimes, sleight of hand
methodical work, military strategy, labour contracting, rhythmic performance
authority, luxury, renting, display of public service
irregular and disturbed outcomes with malefics

Bibliography:
Robbins, F. E. (1940). Ptolemy: Tetrabiblos. William Heinmann, London. Retrieved from http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Ptolemy/Tetrabiblos/home.html
Valens, V. Anthologia. Translated by Mark Riley. Retrieved from https://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/Vettius Valens entire.pdf

 

[dr. farr]

I mostly (myself) agree with the above definition of fall (and the above is an excellent elucidation of this concept in traditionalist terminology).
I would say, however, that the planet’s condition of fall will TEND to make it malefic in its influence, but that TENDENCY can either be furthered or reversed, depending upon other factors affecting that planet;
(for ME) these include Manilius decan (face), duodenary, star connection (conjunction or parallel), monomoiria, aspectual/declinational relationship(s)-if any-and a further modification (at least in a good % of cases) by analysis of the Pauline dodekametoirion (I have come to value the Pauline over the Egyptian)-most of our traditionalist friends would also use one of the 5 systems of terms (bounds), however I long ago supplanted these by the monomoiria (years ago—before I experimented with the monomoiria- I primarily used the Egyptian bounds) Also, I regard the entire sign as the fall of the given planet, rather than only certain degrees of that sign.

(please note that the above is presented ONLY as my PERSONAL opinion and methodology)

 

[sinhtheslumberingdragon]

I mostly (myself) agree with the above definition of fall (and the above is an excellent elucidation of this concept in traditionalist terminology).
I would say, however, that the planet’s condition of fall will TEND to make it malefic in its influence, but that TENDENCY can either be furthered or reversed, depending upon other factors affecting that planet;
(for ME) these include Manilius decan (face), duodenary, star connection (conjunction or parallel), monomoiria, aspectual/declinational relationship(s)-if any-and a further modification (at least in a good % of cases) by analysis of the Pauline dodekametoirion (I have come to value the Pauline over the Egyptian)-most of our traditionalist friends would also use one of the 5 systems of terms (bounds), however I long ago supplanted these by the monomoiria (years ago—before I experimented with the monomoiria- I primarily used the Egyptian bounds) Also, I regard the entire sign as the fall of the given planet, rather than only certain degrees of that sign.

(please note that the above is presented ONLY as my PERSONAL opinion and methodology)

Indeed - the entire sign, however the affliction is said to be less once it is past the exact degree (Valens called it rising from the south)

 

[waybread]

The exaltations were originally Mesopotamian, and seem to be older than domiciles, detriments, and falls. The exaltations were simply places in constellations where planets seemed especially powerful. My hunch is that the Greeks then extended this system by signsz to include other areas of planetary strength and weakness.

A good book on Babylonian constellations is Gavin White, Babylonian Star Lore. They typically called Virgo the Furrow, as in a plowed field. The stars Spica and Vindemiatrix attest to Virgo's agricultural associations. Virgo was also associated with a woman carrying a palm frond, as date palms were so important in the Near East. Virgo's identity shifted around a bit subsequently: cf. the Muslim proscription against representing the human form. Virgo became a palm frond. European Virgo was sometimes portrayed as winged, sometimes not. To Europeans she was a chaste "maiden"-- which also carried connotations of the Virgin Mary. Virgo is considered a barren sign to gardeners because a virgin by definition is not pregnant or a mother.