What about Saturn in the first house?

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Moondance

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It seems I remember seeing references to this being a "bad " placement in horary, yet some seem to use it as a secondary significator. In the particular horary that makes me ask at this time, Saturn is exulted in Libra, Venus being the primary significator. Can it refer to the future in general, should it be interpreted as whatever is ruled by Saturn in the horary? I'm at a loss-it just doesn't seem to refer to anything important to the horary.
 
Many of our traditionalist friends consider this a stricture or otherwise bad placement, destroying the matter, etc: I am sure some will explain these concepts here on this thread.

For me (I mostly follow the Ankara tradition in horary) I have never considered Saturn in the first to be a stricture or even that it is necessarily indicative of negative outcomes: this concept (of the malefic horary influence of Saturn in the 1st) is not found in the Ankara tradition, nor have I found it in old time authors like Al-Biruni, Al-Kindi, or even Ibn Ezra. Also, there is no indication of this concept in Vedic horary (called prasna sastra)

Maybe I'm not bothered by Saturn in the 1st because I have it (and Mars too!) in my natal 1st house and have come to consider these planets "friends of mine"...
 
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It seems I remember seeing references to this being a "bad " placement in horary, yet some seem to use it as a secondary significator.

There are a number of "strictures," "warnings" and "considerations" in Horary.

None of them render a chart invalid. When Saturn is not a significator of the Querent or the Quesited/Matter, and it appears in the 1st House, it signifies the destruction of the Matter/Question when Saturn is Malefic.

If Saturn appears in the 1st House, and it is Exalted (in Libra) and Direct (and not Retrograde) and not impeded by a square or opposition from the Sun, a Malefic Mercury or from Mars, then it signifies great delays in the Matter being perfected, assuming the Matter will be perfected.

To discover the reason or cause of the delay, look to the Houses Saturn rules, Capricorn and Aquarius. Since Saturn is in Libra, an Air Sign, I would scrutinize Aquarius.

If Libra is the Ascendant, then Aquarius will be the 5th House Cusp, possibly the 6th House if Pisces is intercepted in the 6th House.

Remember the Planets signify both Things and People. So you're looking at Saturnian people and those things ruled by Saturn. While it is your 5th House, if the his a relationship or other 7th House Horary, it most likely would be the 11th House of the Quesited, meaning here that a friend of the Quesited will cause delays in perfecting the Matter.

If it would be a Matter of Substance, that is the 1st and 2nd Houses are used in delineation, then the 5th House would be the fourth House from the 2nd House, so your father or parents might interfere and delay whatever is happening, or it could be something else related to the fourth House significations.

If Aquarius fell on the 6th House, that is Illnesses and Servants, so perhaps an illness delays perfection of the Matter. It could also be your employees or people that work for you who delay the Matter. Again, in a 7th House issue, the 6th House is the 12th House of the Quesited, so it could be that secret enemies attempt to sabotage the plans resulting in delays, or that the Quesited has some fears to get over until those are overcome the Matter is delayed.

Then look at Capricorn. You'd want to see aspects. The mere fact that Saturn in the 1st with Aquarius on the 6th House Cusp doesn't mean you'd get an illness. If Venus was applying to Saturn it could (especially if Saturn did not receive Venus). If Mars were applying to Saturn that would indicate fear or secret enemies of the Quesited.

As far as how long a Matter will be delayed, that would depends on the difference in degrees between the significators and the Signs/Houses involved and then try to fumble your way through Zael's On Times to get the timing.
 
I would think that it symbolizes a block from getting the answer or a positive result, maybe people get in the way or give you the runaround, or the answer is totally hidden and private from you. I think I remember reading that if Saturn's in the first or the Moon's VOC you're supposed to just give up and ask at another time.
 
I think I remember reading that if Saturn's in the first or the Moon's VOC you're supposed to just give up and ask at another time.

I sure hope you didn't read that on this forum, because that's way wrong.

A Void of Course Moon means nothing will happen. To find out why nothing will happen, you just have to read the chart and it will tell you.
 
excellent!

I am sorry to hijack this thread, but I just asked a horary question about a lawsuit and I got just that! Saturn in the 1st! However...


So, here's the thing. (chart attached - please see).
Saturn rules the 4th house - end of matter, the verdict - and it is in the 1st house, exalted in Libra. Does that mean... it favors me?



I am venus in a cadent house, but I am not in terrible shape like my opponent, a combusted mars, though in an angular. But what do you think about Saturn in the 1st on this one?
 

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Moon void of course means nothing will happen. Saturn in 1, as a rule, means the querent is s.crewed.

Didn't look at your chart, just so's you know.
 
destroying the matter

I wonder what that even means, "destroying the matter." What if the matter is not "destructable," just a neutral asking of "will things go this way" or "that-a-way?" So doom and gloom. :crying: Saturn. I don't view him as a Horrific Monster. (I need to believe that to survive, my natal is a bucket handle to Saturn.) If you think about how Saturn has worked in your natal, the consequences of not heeding it's advice, not being tenaciously efficient and patient to reward, I think it works in the same way. Why would a planet behave differently in our lives in natal than in horary?

Back to the subject - I've also read that if Saturn is in Cappie, Aqua or Libra and there are no gi-normous bad aspects to it, there will be time and delay in the matter if it is to come about anyway (other supporting criteria.)
 
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Al-Kindi and, later, Ibn Ezra ("Beginning of Wisdom"), stated that a malefic (Mars and Saturn) if posited in an angle (1st, 10th, 7th or 4th house) and NOT in a sign of detriment or Fall, becomes equivalent in effect to a benefic, especially so if it is in its domicile or exaltation sign.
I myself believe this and share this point of view.
Saturn in the 1st could simply mean that patience, persistence, determination or dedication are required in the matter, or in the actions and attitudes of the querent regarding the matter.
 
Al-Kindi and, later, Ibn Ezra ("Beginning of Wisdom"), stated that a malefic (Mars and Saturn) if posited in an angle (1st, 10th, 7th or 4th house) and NOT in a sign of detriment or Fall, becomes equivalent in effect to a benefic, especially so if it is in its domicile or exaltation sign.
QUOTE]

What if Saturn is in Libra, 1st but retro?
 
In my understanding of the above referenced authors, the rx status would knock out Saturn's otherwise dignified and benefic status. For me, I would give Saturn a +1 for exaltation sign and a +1 for being in a pivot and then a -1 for rx motion, giving a final count of +1 (slightly favorable) In my outlook, the rx status would greatly reduce Saturn's otherwise very benefic influence (from being in Libra and in the ascending pivot) and point to a self-conflicted/self-contradictory, rebellious/defiant and/or frustrated quality involving the Saturn influence...
 
Moon void of course means nothing will happen. Saturn in 1, as a rule, means the querent is s.crewed.

Didn't look at your chart, just so's you know.


Sorry, but that is wrong. Moon VOC DOES NOT ALWAYS mean nothing will hapen. It depends on many other factors. The same with the placement of Saturn on the 1st.
 
Planets in a sign always co-rule the affairs of that House, even if it is Saturn. Saturn on the 1st if you are the one asking the question may mean you are not doing the reading correctly, but just go with it.
 
Hi, I have never had anything good come of the matter with Saturn in the 1st house or as a sig. Things never worked out the way I wanted them to, it was always difficult.
Tootsie
 
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Any link on this, Bob? I tried to search it but this thread only came up.

You can find it in Sahl ibn Bishr, Introduction to the Science of the Judgment of the Stars, trans. James Holden, AFA.

It isn't on the Net, as far as I know.

Ben Dykes also translated it in his 'Works of Sahl and Masha'allah' but it's three or four times the price of the Holden translation.
 
Many of our traditionalist friends consider this a stricture or otherwise bad placement, destroying the matter, etc: I am sure some will explain these concepts here on this thread.

For me (I mostly follow the Ankara tradition in horary) I have never considered Saturn in the first to be a stricture or even that it is necessarily indicative of negative outcomes: this concept (of the malefic horary influence of Saturn in the 1st) is not found in the Ankara tradition, nor have I found it in old time authors like Al-Biruni, Al-Kindi, or even Ibn Ezra. Also, there is no indication of this concept in Vedic horary (called prasna sastra)

Maybe I'm not bothered by Saturn in the 1st because I have it (and Mars too!) in my natal 1st house and have come to consider these planets "friends of mine"...


Mars in first in most cases indicates an impulsive temperament, but because Saturn is also there it would show that the person has learnt quite a lot in this matter and as he ages, he learns to control mars temperament.

But because Saturn is also there, it would show in my eyes that the person had a somewhat different / difficult beginning of life and life brought him to the front / in front of the public very early in life. The reasoning for this may be both good or bad. It is best to see the whole chart.

Sometimes mars manifests itself as some sign on the forehead or face.
I have found people with mars in first to be very quick tempered but Saturn there will control the impulsiveness and rashness of mars.
This would make the first look of the person as a sober / serious person.

But if Saturn in the first house had been alone, it would mean something different altogether. Yes it would make the person serious minded too.

Without seeing the whole chart, normally I would hazard a guess that partners would be a problem too.

A very short description of this placement without going in much detail (my opinion only)
Dr. Farr would you like to comment on the above?. You can send me pm, if you like too.

As far as horary is concerned, I am not sure about its accuracy. Maybe my reasoning may be faulty, but all the questions which I have asked concerning horary have given me negative replies at best. So I don't know about horary at all.
 
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Sethi
There is a great deal of accuracy (in my opinion) in your description of Mars and Saturn in the 1st house (especially relative to natal astrology) Why do I say this? Because Mars and Saturn are in the 1st house in MY natal chart (under Virgo) and your descriptions of these 2 planets in the first house largely agree with my OWN life experiences!
 
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