What is the Soul in astrology?

[!3*_!un@_!nc*9n!t*]

The reason for the pics ??? ........


Can you see the souls in the picture ???

They are there , and they are "sending you a message" whether you or they like it or not !![wink]

oh .... yeah ....... you need to put objective reality down for a moment to see them ...... and when you wake up tomorrow .... you will notice the effect they had on you (even if you never drop objective reality .... now how's that for paradox??).




Then ..... you will have your own proof ..... ( as if you needed it) [smirk]

Have a great day Wayne !!!

 

[wayne penner]

Well I must admit your daughter is a very pretty young lady, although I cannot prove it.

I too have a picture somewhere of me wearing a silly hat that I will post when I can find it.

On objective reality (an interesting term that), and proof, another relative term, I think we must accept that that eventually everything is a tautology, everything is circular eventually. Indeed, it was precisely how Einstein described "infinity" - the Universe as a sphere with an infinite radius, which of course means that every point in the Universe is precisely at it's center. Everything is relative you know.

So my point is, and without bring Ayn Rand into it, we are stuck with what we can prove logically, proceeding from a point to a second point according to the defined and precise rules of logic within a framework described by our understanding of that framework. More Descartes and less Rand.

Also, I think you are having me on slightly, LOL.

 

[!3*_!un@_!nc*9n!t*]

......... we are stuck with what we can prove logically, .......

I think this may be your problem !!!!!

No-one is "stuck" anywhere ....... we "stick ourselves" !!

I , for one , practise Astrology ( after my own bent) ....... the "logic" of it's proofs are "relative" to the beliefs and foibles of each individual observer or participant ......

I am not constrained , even by my own perverted sense of "proof" and "reality" ....... unless i choose it !!!!



Try this ...... it may help a bit

..... nothing more can be attempted than to establish the beginning and the direction of an infinitely long road. The pretension of any systematic and definitive completenesswould be at least , a self-illusion.
Perfection here can only be obtained by the individual student only in the subjective sense that he communicates everything he has been able to see. Georg Simmel

 

[!3*_!un@_!nc*9n!t*]

PS. I watched a documentary about Georg Kantor and his efforts to understand and work with infinity.

Well worth a watch in the context of your "quest".

Sometimes when we look too hard at "things".... they bite us .... it can help to bring a light heart to these things sometimes ......

LLT(Leo_Lunar_Tick - incogneto)

 

[wayne penner]

PS. I watched a documentary about Georg Kantor and his efforts to understand and work with infinity.

Well worth a watch in the context of your "quest".

Sometimes when we look too hard at "things".... they bite us .... it can help to bring a light heart to these things sometimes ......

LLT(Leo_Lunar_Tick - incogneto)

You are talking quantum theory now ... frankly you have explained nothing. You have posed with a very silly hat which is quite becoming though, you have a lovely daughter and that painting's not half bad unless it's half done, in which case it's only half bad.

The truth is that no one understands anything except within a described mathematical framework that continually evolves. We really don't know what quasars or pulsars are, there is only a vague understanding of how Black Holes develop and still the dynamics are unknown. We don't know what dark matter is although it must exist, as the General Theory predicted. There is no explanation for "forbidden lines" on the spectrographs of young stars that show heavy elements when none can possibly exist.

So lets not get carried away with ourselves and how smart we are. I need a hat like that.

 

[!3*_!un@_!nc*9n!t*]

You are talking quantum theory now ... frankly you have explained nothing.

I think i've explained plenty .....

1> that the soul in astrology is , for all intents and purposes , an "octave" reading.
2>that the soul , for all intents and puposes , is intangible ..... yet ...
a)it perceives
b)it is aware
c)it exists
d)it plays a "real" role in the way the "bearer" assimilates and applies "abstract concepts" to "objective reality".


Wayne , i really appreciate the chance to have this discussion ..... i know i've benefited....... so -o ....... many many thanx for your probing.

Further .... the picture is "half bad" [chuckle] , will always be incomplete , and , was a great lesson(s) to my daughter about the nature of creativity
and personal expression ....

Carried Away ??? ROFLMAO ..... my reference to Kantor (and his work) is what it did to his "state of mind' and his "state of being".

Similar things happened to Edgar Cayce .......

I was implying that understanding and feeling are only two "postions" that Humans can handle ...... there are others that don't lend themselves to "feeling" or understanding" ....... nor can you connect them with "dots" .......

we were taught "how" to "handle"(assimilate) Understanding and "how" to "handle" feeling as infants , as a result we develop "self-consciousness" ......

.... on that basis , we can "handle" other points too.


Reason and understanding have their limitations.



does this look familiar ??? [smile]

 

[jagetoile]

deleted post.

 

[!3*_!un@_!nc*9n!t*]

hello LLT, i like your way of explaining the soul through pictures. Soul is an unfanthomable thing, it does not exist in logic, but in image and fantasy. cheers!

Thanx !! I'm touched ...really !!(and hopeless at being complimented)

These were "doodles" done by a "psych nurse" ... i added the colour only

I think they say something deep about the "human condition" ...wish i could get better detail for you.

I mainly "do" music

 

[wayne penner]

Sorry but I won't let you off that easily. People are continually defining the Soul in terms of itself - "the soul is an unfathonable thing" - ( what is it that is unfathonable?) but it does not stand up to logical scrutiny. It is simply a circular argument and as such is meaningless. It is like saying, "The sky is blue because it isn't green".

Since everything in life can be solved by logic and it's substrate mathematics isn't it a bit of a worry that the soul cannot be described? My sense is that it belongs with Father Christmas and the Tooth Fairy, both of which exist if you believe hard enough ...

 

[!3*_!un@_!nc*9n!t*]

Sorry but I won't let you off that easily.

you are not sorry , you are belligerent [smile] .... no offence intended , belligerence can be good [nods]

People are continually defining the Soul in terms of itself -

duh .... we continually re-invent our world through the act of perception .... nothing new here !!

"the soul is an unfathonable thing" - ( what is it that is unfathonable?) but it does not stand up to logical scrutiny.

your point ?? ....and the "reason" [chuckle] for it ???

It is simply a circular argument and as such is meaningless. It is like saying, "The sky is blue because it isn't green".

Logical fallacy = "because it is a circular argument it is therefore meaningless." One may imply the connection , that is all.

Since everything in life can be solved by logic ....... (cont'd)

oops a daisy there Buddy !!! Perhaps we could examine why you said this for it contains much of what drives our Mr (Bruce) Wayne.

This is a naive and cavalier assumption dressed up us and presented as "fact". [Frankly it is laughably simplistic]

I do not agree with this because i feel it limits me and narrows "my world"

(cont'd) ......and it's substrate mathematics isn't it a bit of a worry that the soul cannot be described?

Just because it lacks a "finite description" ?? !! not for me !!! [smile] Your "feelings" [which provide the undercurrent to this very conversation] are beyond description ....... you can describe them by their effects and causes .... but you cannot make them conform to your "euclidean like" descriptions of the world at large ...... no matter how hard you try ...... [This argument destroys "objective reality and rationalism" out of hand Wayne..... do you know where your left your "Inflatable Vest of the Blessed Assumption" last time you used it.]

Wayne , your tool may be sharp ...... Box Cutters wont mark a Diamond !!

My sense is that it belongs with Father Christmas and the Tooth Fairy, both of which exist if you believe hard enough ...

LOL ...another display !! ...... you either believe or you don't ..... there is no "hard enough" about belief.


" .... look inside yourself my son , you know it to be true ....." Darth Vader

Wayne , your various challenges across the forum ....... why ??

.... if you seek to understand , then understand yourself first .....

.... a life unexamined is no life at all ..........

i am not here for the intellectual joust my friend ....... if we're not "going anywhere" with this except to Debate just for the sake of it ...... i got other charts to look at , paintings to paint , and songs to learn ....... [let me know your intentions]

Best Regards
LLT

 

[wayne penner]

you are not sorry , you are belligerent [smile] .... no offence intended , belligerence can be good [nods]


duh .... we continually re-invent our world through the act of perception .... nothing new here !!



your point ?? ....and the "reason" [chuckle] for it ???



Logical fallacy = "because it is a circular argument it is therefore meaningless." One may imply the connection , that is all.


oops a daisy there Buddy !!! Perhaps we could examine why you said this for it contains much of what drives our Mr (Bruce) Wayne.

This is a naive and cavalier assumption dressed up us and presented as "fact". [Frankly it is laughably simplistic]

I do not agree with this because i feel it limits me and narrows "my world"


Just because it lacks a "finite description" ?? !! not for me !!! [smile] Your "feelings" [which provide the undercurrent to this very conversation] are beyond description ....... you can describe them by their effects and causes .... but you cannot make them conform to your "euclidean like" descriptions of the world at large ...... no matter how hard you try ...... [This argument destroys "objective reality and rationalism" out of hand Wayne..... do you know where your left your "Inflatable Vest of the Blessed Assumption" last time you used it.]

Wayne , your tool may be sharp ...... Box Cutters wont mark a Diamond !!


LOL ...another display !! ...... you either believe or you don't ..... there is no "hard enough" about belief.


" .... look inside yourself my son , you know it to be true ....." Darth Vader

Wayne , your various challenges across the forum ....... why ??

.... if you seek to understand , then understand yourself first .....

.... a life unexamined is no life at all ..........

i am not here for the intellectual joust my friend ....... if we're not "going anywhere" with this except to Debate just for the sake of it ...... i got other charts to look at , paintings to paint , and songs to learn ....... [let me know your intentions]

Best Regards
LLT

Well I do find your posts fairly amusing, but you do not appear to be terribly serious. You cannot at once discuss the rules of logic and use logic to undermine them with fallacy that is not fallacy, and your examplle was incomplete in any case.

I posted this because I understand only some things about life. I do not understand death. I do not understand the Soul. I have yet to meet anyone who does, although I have met many serious people in life, and you do not seem to be one of them.

I wonder what life is at death, because that is what the Soul is surely, its life, if there is such a thing. But carry on, it brightens my day ...

 

[!3*_!un@_!nc*9n!t*]

i'll give it one more go ... [smile] i'll be frank ...for effect only [wink]

You cannot at once discuss the rules of logic and use logic to undermine them with fallacy that is not fallacy, and your examplle was incomplete in any case.

Out and Out Bullshit ! viz a viz I did it right here , in public , in front of your very eyes .......

What happened to the Logical Positivist ?? .... the Mr Objective Reality ..... Mr "show it to me now" .

C'mon Wayne , what's up here ? ...... Canute was a fool , you know that don't you ??

I posted this because I understand only some things about life. I do not understand death. I do not understand the Soul. I have yet to meet anyone who does, although I have met many serious people in life, and you do not seem to be one of them.

An attempt to excuse yourself based on your own assessments on others .

Do you have a question , or is this just emotional flavouring for the provoking of a "hoped for" response perhaps ....hmmmmm ?

[some things are indeed unfathomable - is this really one of them]

I wonder what life is at death, because that is what the Soul is surely, its life, if there is such a thing. But carry on, it brightens my day ...

You wonder [.... now there is something truly unfathomable ....... yet , you gloss over this monumental feat as though it was the most mundane instinct.]therefore , you are wonderful

if you don't like being wonderful , .....tough **** !!

You ponder life and death , how about asking your death what it thinks of your controlled folly ( the thing you call ..."your life") none of it is necessary and/or mandatory.

That Death (as we know it ) is the end of "Life" is something that you have been taught !! That "may" be right !! , but , does it matter ???


cognizance is Entropy

ponder this .....deeply!!

Then ..... Laugh ...... you cannot face the unknown without realising you are also part of it ......what can a man(or woman , Loretta) do ??

I "choose" to tread lightly (of heart) , following "the path with heart" .... it may pass your eyes as "lite" ....... that's for you to live with


I desire to know ..."stuff". ...... and , sometimes , "stuff" doesn't "yield" to my preconceptions , perceptions or conscious mind ....... that doesn't stop knowledge ...... only understanding , in other cases "stuff" stop's feeling's , the list goes on ...... perhaps

The rest of you is "out there" Wayne ...... how long do you think it will wait around for you to acknowledge "it" ....... there's a place in your mind where you can "fear the absence of" "soul" ..... that's why you're here.

 

[Natasha]

What is the Soul in astrology? Well some say its represented by Pluto or Hades the god of the underworld.
And during Pluto transits, Hades comes up from the underworld & knocks on our door to ask us to attend to issues concering our souls growth.

I have had a few Pluto transits (like us all) and I am inclined to agree with this theory

Pluto demands truth. He demands that we get back onto the path or journey our soul wants us to be on and will tear asunder anything he thinks gets in the way of this journey. Sometimes his methods seem dramatic but perhaps we have ignored other calls and he really wants us to grow.

The transpersonal planets definately link to the bigger journey we take - I feel

 

[wayne penner]

The existence of the soul may be unprovable, and I will accept that but then so must those who believe in the existence of the soul - it is simply a postulate until proven. But we have only the tools of logic, otherwise our conclusions are meaningless, descending into the realm of superstition and religious belief.

Descartes proved logically that we exist as individual entities, and by inference that there are other individuals. We exist in a four dimensional framework that we understand precisely (I know about the dimensions and the mathematical certainty of 9 and the potential for 13 but that is an aside), but we cannot prove that as individual entities we somehow have some kind of existence that survives physical death. The heart stops, the body rots away. What is left, and if anything is left then where does it go?

 

[!3*_!un@_!nc*9n!t*]

The existence of the soul may be unprovable, and I will accept that

Very generous of you ....so far , so good !! I am sure your soul appreciates this

but then so must those who believe in the existence of the soul

no they don't .... this is just your expectation /feeling of entitlement. Nature is neither logical nor democratic ....and "fair" is a relative concept and .... as discussed before "proof" is a movable feast.

ergo , those who believe , have , according to their own(personal) standards , all the proof they could ever want or need , probably more if we choose to explore this point.

My point is we can , if we choose , place our perception and attention on a "place" where we must believe. The act of belief is similar to the act of perception ...... it is "creative" , and , as such it challenges the idea of "The Creator". (this can be shown by way of an obverse proof)

But we have only the tools of logic,

you seem sadly under-equipped , have you overlooked some of the tools in your box. Perhaps you have "thrown out" some useful tools without realising what they were used for??

otherwise our conclusions are meaningless, descending into the realm of superstition and religious belief.

a classic Freudian slip .... watching everybody .....

This statement presupposes (assumes) that "superstition and religious belief" are "meaningless"

The statement may be true for you Wayne .... the Rest of the World & I, on the other hand , will make our own choices as to what is meaningful or not .... Thank you very much.

Descartes proved logically that we exist as individual entities, and by inference that there are other individuals.

proved !! ?? [they shoot horses don't they??] you are flogging a dead horse Mate !!

Proof is arbitrary ..... sheesh .... how many times have we got to go through the basics!!

[the force is strong with this one ]

Logic !!! ??? ..... puh-leeeease , this would be your testosterone loaded "Ayn Rand" version of logical inference would it not ...... y'know the one .

"Logic" , as with "proof" , is bound up in the subjective roots of Culture ...... yes , even your logic. (e.g. try using Fundamentalist Xtian Logic ... "it is in the bible , therefore etc.,etc.," - sounds illogical to me , yet , there are millions who believe otherwise)

Simple observation seems to be killing your seemingly glib and scholarly position .....

when you can control the rules of your world then you can speak with certainty and definition and your words will have ultimate power & be "the law". Hopefully , you will be very happy on your own.(which is another deep point - for another thread perhaps.)

On the other hand , my world is very different from yours , if you dont like it , go back to yours.

Don't try and force me to live in "your (self-constucted) world" .. OK??

but we cannot prove that as individual entities we somehow have some kind of existence that survives physical death.

i laffed hard at this one ..... based on the obvious truth that "existence exists" ....... again .....What is existence ???

When you answer that (and a lot of people have tried) then your question will be a doddle. Too easy !!

The heart stops, the body rots away. What is left, and if anything is left then where does it go?

again you miss the obvious ( it's not your fault , it is your upbringing and education) ......... Why does it go ???

Wayne , you really must put aside what you have learned whilst you learn new things. It must be clear to you by now , that you are not dealing with an idiot ...... yet , for all your intelligence and ability , your tools will not make a mark on your level of understanding .... you need the right tool for the right job and "western thinking" is not the right tool !!!!!

Grow , in any direction you choose ......... just ~!@#$%^ grow !!!

What do you think the other 90% of your brain is doing ??

Where do you think it sees itself ??

 

[!3*_!un@_!nc*9n!t*]

It must be clear to you by now , that you are not dealing with an idiot

let me be clear ....... it is you , Wayne , that this statement refers to .....not me.

 

[!3*_!un@_!nc*9n!t*]

Hi Wayne , i've said much about overcoming the conditioning our Society inculcates in us .... of the legacy handed to us by our immediate predecessors which is ...... rationalism and Reason

I am sort of hoping that this article will help you to understand what that means in the real world ..... by way of an example from history ... the article says early on about the vanquishing or "reduced status" for the Non-reasonable or Non-rational mind (for want of a better term) .....

I wont bore you with the bibliography ...... i think the text is pretty clear



"............... Catholicism itself had already assumed the myth of original sin. Protestantism exasperated this myth by proclaiming the fundamental powerlessness of man to achieve salvation through his own efforts; generally speaking, it regarded the whole of humankind as a damned mass, condemned to automatically commit evil.
[...]
After rejecting the objective notion of spirituality as a reality ranking higher than profane existence, the Protestant doctrine allowed man to feel, in all aspects of life, as a being who was simultaneously spiritual and earthly, justified and sinner....It was in the historical development of Protestantism, especially in Anglo-Saxon Calvinism and Puritanism, that the religious idea became increasingly dissociated from any transcendent interest and thus susceptible to being used to sanctify any temporal achievement to the point of generating a kind of mysticism of social service, work, "progress," and even profit."
[...]
"The individualism intrinsic in the Protestant theory of private interpretation of Scripture was connected with another aspect of modern humanism: rationalism. The single individual who got rid of the dogmatic tradition and the principle of spiritual authority, by claiming to have within himself the capability of right discernment, gradually ended up promoting the cult of that which in him, as a human being, is the basis of all judgments, namely, the faculty of reason....Naturally there were some "germs" of rationalism in ancient Hellas...and in the Middle Ages....Beginning with the Renaissance, however, rationalism became differentiated and assumed, in one of its most important currents, a new character: from speculative in nature it became aggressive and generated the Enlightenment, Encyclopedism, and antireligious and revolutionary criticism. In this regard, it is necessary to acknowledge the effects of further processes of involution and inversion that display an even more sinister character because they negatively affected some surviving organizations of an initiatic type, as in the case of the Illuminati and of modern Masonry....

 

[!3*_!un@_!nc*9n!t*]

"all your soul are belonk to us"

"all you thinkink are belonk to us"


"resistance is futile"
"resistance is futile"
"resistance is futile"
"resistance is futile"

I'm really hoping that article explained what i have been driving at when i say there is more than "understanding" and "feeling" inside us ...... we are spritual beings ... all of us ....mysteries (even to ourselves)

All the Best
LLT

 

[wayne penner]

Well, while you like to parse my comments (a bit of Virgo there?) I maintain a consistent approach to the problem of the existence of the soul, which you have only managed to dance around rather than actually discuss.

As for religious beliefs and superstition beaing meaningless, well obviously they are not to the believers, but from an objective point of view, which I always take as a scientist, they are not valid in dealing with objective issues since there is no essential substance to them - they remain subjective experiences only. This is not to say that there is no God - as an agnostic I simply don't know - but there is certainly no proof nor any evidence that can be replicated that God, or the soul, exist, and there never has been. Rather, we are forced to rely on anecdotal accounts of God, which at best are inflated and at worst are erroneous interpretations of what I consider an internal psychological imbalance. You might consider that some of the worst mass-murderers also claim to be deeply religious.

Religious beliefs may be comforting, and superstions may give a sense of having some control over what appears to be a cold and uncaring Universe, a Randian Universe if you wish. Neither have any objective value and both are purely personal, and to my mind, rather infantile.

 

[Natasha]

Wayne - a good counter argument
but just wondering if your Australian
Atheism is quite popular in Australia - in fact we would probably be the least spiritual country in the world
Why - some say its because we had a large number of poor irish catholics sent here originally and the church was quite demanding to them
So now in the latter 20th & early 21st there has been a great turn away from everything spiritual
Also this group is well represented in the public service which has a lot of power in decision making here in schools, public broadcasting, public media & entertainment, government etc
There is a strong pro to reject anything which current science cannot prove.
I am inclined to feel that a belief system is a personal experiance.
When one of my cousins was born My Auntie claims to have had a strong feeling that she had known one of her sons 'before'
Also when my other auntie was pre schooler she apparantly constantly talk about what she used to do 'before' ie would say I lived in a house like that & I was this colored skin etc etc

I dont think that its necessary to scientificlly prove whether a soul exists or not imo
The people who want to beleive will believe & the ones who dont want to believe wont & thats how it should be