Whole vs. Equal - which one to use

[Forel]

Dear community,

I'm starting to learn astrology and dive deeper into the subject on reading natal charts. I know many of astrologers these days are using Whole Sign house system, as the original and the one that has proven the most accuracy in their practice. I have some struggles towards it, looking at some charts and planetary meanings I have found that Whole Signs hasn't been accurate regarding the house topics according to planets landing in houses. I take it into account, that I may not undestand the whole meaning of the planet, so I wanted to reach out to you to get some help with it.

A little disclaimer about me. I grew up in a home with abusive drunk father, but my parents divorced when I was 5, so I haven't remembered that much of bad moments in my home. Since early years, my mom has put large emphasis on my education, and I was really thriving to express myself in some creative way. I was drawing, then I turned into writing - novels, journals, stories, then "books" and after that poetry. Then I've tried photography, journalism and creating some content in social media. I've mastered PR and journalism, and over 6 years I work creatively in the field of PR and content communication, where coming up with creative ideas of communication is the most important aspect at my job and the ones that brings me a lot of joy. I'm very jovial and optimistic person, always having fun and making a laugh. I think that having joy, fun and pleasures in life is the most important thing, which help us keep the balance of everyday life duties. I'm not hardworker, I stress with schedule, don't like them, and I'm not that ambitious in work. I get light up, where is something creative to do. I'm in almost 11-year happy relationship with my partner I've met at uni. We have some rule-setting things to do to reach the happy state, and definitely accepting the area of self-freedom were neccesary to gain it.

I'm Leo rising, with Sun in Capricorn, MC in Aries, Moon in Cancer, Mercury and Mars conjunct in Sagittarius, Venus with Pluto in Scorpio, Saturn in Aquarius and Jupiter in Virgo.

The planetary positions shifts depending the house systems. MC in 9th, Moon in the 12th, Jupiter in 2nd, Venus & Pluto in 4th stay the same.
Whole Signs: Sun in the 6th house, Mars and Mercury in 5th, Saturn in 7th.
Equal Houes: Sun in the 5th, Mars in the 5th, Mercury in the 4th, Saturn in the 6th.

I personally resonate way more with planetary positions on Equal. How do you see the Sun (as a chart ruler) in the 6th. It doesn't make sense for me.

The same goes with my Mother, also Leo rising. In WS her Sun is in the 5th, and those topics weren't main focus in her life. I would only say, she has a child, being the one that ticks the box. On the other hand 4th house (Equal) topics - were overly present. During her whole life she put family over everything, even her marriage. She felt the duty to take care of her parents, and making sure everything is safe in family home. She often resigned doing something, because of the family duty. Even with building her own family and home, she put it above everything. She stayed married to abusive drunk, thinking a child needs both mother and father. On the other hand, she is nowhere creative and self-expressive, nor focused on children or having fun and joy. She also hasn't had flings, romances or sex-adventures, she wasn't also interested in having more children. So sun in 5th house doesn't make any sense.

What do you think?

 

[JUPITERASC]

*


Our forum recognises that everyone is entitled to an opinion
no one is right or wrong

dr. farr studied astrology for more than fifty years
and is of the opinion

re: the application of genuine whole sign methods

to chart delineation
as follows

Cusps:
Today (and for the past thousand years or so) we define cusps as "borders" (coasts), but that is not the original meaning of the word "cusp": it means "point" such as cuspal teeth (bicuspids) and the point of a sword

- so originally the term cusp meant the "point" of something, and in astrology originally the "cusp" of the house meant its "point";

now, when quadrant systems were developed, this "point" of the house came to mean its "beginning", which later came to mean its "border", ie, the "border" between one house and the other.

And later astrology also began using these "borders" (cusps) for various prognostic applications (Charles Carter came to believe that, for timing of events, the "cusps" of the Campanus house system gave the best results, among the various quadrant house systems)

But now notice this: in whole sign the cusps are NOT the 0 degree "borders" of sign/houses at all, and never were so regarded!

In whole sign, the "cusp" retained its original meaning, not as a "border" but rather as A POINT

-and that POINT (cusp) for EACH house, was the sensitive point of that house, viz, the sensitive point in whole sign houses-each house-that is the "cusp" of each house-is a direct projection from the ascending degree.

Example:
-the ascending degree of a chart is 18 Taurus: what are the house cusps (sensitive points, original meaning of the word "cusp") in the whole sign houses of this chart?
Cusp of 1st house = 18 Taurus
Cusp of 2nd house = 18 Gemini
Cusp of 3rd house = 18 Cancer
Cusp of 4th house = 18 Leo
Cusp of 5th house = 18 Virgo
Cusp of 6th house = 18 Libra
Cusp of 7th house = 18 Scorpio
Cusp of 8th house = 18 Sagittarius
Cusp of 9th house = 18 Capricorn
Cusp of 10th house = 18 Aquarius
Cusp of 11th house = 18 Pisces
Cusp of 12th house = 18 Aries

Now it is these "cusps" (sensitive degrees, original meaning of the word "cusp" as a "point") that are (and were) used for progressions, timing of events, etc, and the fact is that they work for these purposes, quite well (in expert hands)

Whole sign does not use the BORDERS between houses (always 0 degree of any sign) for anything, but it DOES use "cusps" (points in the house, projected from the exact ascending degree) for timing (and other) delineative purposes.

Whole sign suddenly vanished (both in the West and in Vedic astrology) during the same period of time-ie, late 8th to early 9th century - this sudden disappearance suggests a sudden turn in astrological thinking and practices, rather than a gradual supplanting of a less effective traditional method (whole sign) by a new and more effective method (rheotrius/alchabitius in the West, and the closely related to whole sign Equal house, in Vedic astrology)

For me, there is only 1 reason I switched to whole sign-it worked better (FOR ME)

I could care less if it were the oldest house system (which it is) or whether it was invented by Badda Bing at Barney's Beanery in Bayonne, 10 years ago: only things I consider are:
-does it seem to make sense?
-does it "taste good" to me (ie, does it "feel right" to me)
-and, if yes to the above, does it work (producing delineations and predicitions) better than what I have previously been doing?

Well, whole sign did all that, for me, so I switched; but I am not going to try to convince anyone of anything about it, except for beginners-to you who might just be starting out, I would say: try whole sign first, and see how well it might work for you...

 

[Forel]

*


Our forum recognises that everyone is entitled to an opinion
no one is right or wrong

dr. farr studied astrology for more than fifty years
and is of the opinion

re: the application of genuine whole sign methods

to chart delineation
as follows

I'm sorry but I quite don't understand how does it apply to my question .

 

[Ecliptique]

Hello Forel,



when I find a moment, I can offer you three interpretations of the essentials of your birth chart: as a House system of whole signs, as a quadrant system of your choice, as a system of equal houses with Ascendant or Midheaven . You can choose the one that suits you best.



Ecliptique.

 

[waybread]

Hi, Forel-- Can you post your horoscope? (There are stickies around here on how to do that.)

Australian astrologer Alice Portman has done a lot of research on different house systems. She's concluded that different people respond better or worse to different house types. It's not a "one size fits all" proposition.

I highly recommend the free charts section at Astrodienst, www.astro.com. They have a drop-down menu that allows you to try out different house systems. The best one will be the one that you feel best describes your life to date.

Generally I'm fine with Placidus, but without a strictly known accurate birth time, I think whole signs is a better bet. Placidus house cusps are very time sensitive, so they won't be accurate if the birth time is a bit off. Which often happens if the birth time has been rounded.

 

[Forel]

Hello Forel,



when I find a moment, I can offer you three interpretations of the essentials of your birth chart: as a House system of whole signs, as a quadrant system of your choice, as a system of equal houses with Ascendant or Midheaven . You can choose the one that suits you best.



Ecliptique.

I'd be happy to! I can post my chart here:

 

[Forel]

Hi, Forel-- Can you post your horoscope? (There are stickies around here on how to do that.)

Australian astrologer Alice Portman has done a lot of research on different house systems. She's concluded that different people respond better or worse to different house types. It's not a "one size fits all" proposition.

I highly recommend the free charts section at Astrodienst, www.astro.com. They have a drop-down menu that allows you to try out different house systems. The best one will be the one that you feel best describes your life to date.

Generally I'm fine with Placidus, but without a strictly known accurate birth time, I think whole signs is a better bet. Placidus house cusps are very time sensitive, so they won't be accurate if the birth time is a bit off. Which often happens if the birth time has been rounded.

Sure:

 

[JUPITERASC]

I'm sorry but I quite don't understand how does it apply to my question .

Your thread title asks re: Whole Sign Houses

the following is a quote from an astrologer
explaining how to use Whole Sign Houses
and
if it is of no use to you
it may be of use to another reader of this thread

Cusps:
Today (and for the past thousand years or so) we define cusps as "borders" (coasts), but that is not the original meaning of the word "cusp": it means "point" such as cuspal teeth (bicuspids) and the point of a sword

- so originally the term cusp meant the "point" of something, and in astrology originally the "cusp" of the house meant its "point";

now, when quadrant systems were developed, this "point" of the house came to mean its "beginning", which later came to mean its "border", ie, the "border" between one house and the other.

And later astrology also began using these "borders" (cusps) for various prognostic applications (Charles Carter came to believe that, for timing of events, the "cusps" of the Campanus house system gave the best results, among the various quadrant house systems)

But now notice this: in whole sign the cusps are NOT the 0 degree "borders" of sign/houses at all, and never were so regarded!

In whole sign, the "cusp" retained its original meaning, not as a "border" but rather as A POINT

-and that POINT (cusp) for EACH house, was the sensitive point of that house, viz, the sensitive point in whole sign houses-each house-that is the "cusp" of each house-is a direct projection from the ascending degree.

Example:
-the ascending degree of a chart is 18 Taurus: what are the house cusps (sensitive points, original meaning of the word "cusp") in the whole sign houses of this chart?
Cusp of 1st house = 18 Taurus
Cusp of 2nd house = 18 Gemini
Cusp of 3rd house = 18 Cancer
Cusp of 4th house = 18 Leo
Cusp of 5th house = 18 Virgo
Cusp of 6th house = 18 Libra
Cusp of 7th house = 18 Scorpio
Cusp of 8th house = 18 Sagittarius
Cusp of 9th house = 18 Capricorn
Cusp of 10th house = 18 Aquarius
Cusp of 11th house = 18 Pisces
Cusp of 12th house = 18 Aries

Now it is these "cusps" (sensitive degrees, original meaning of the word "cusp" as a "point") that are (and were) used for progressions, timing of events, etc, and the fact is that they work for these purposes, quite well (in expert hands)

Whole sign does not use the BORDERS between houses (always 0 degree of any sign) for anything, but it DOES use "cusps" (points in the house, projected from the exact ascending degree) for timing (and other) delineative purposes.

Whole sign suddenly vanished (both in the West and in Vedic astrology) during the same period of time-ie, late 8th to early 9th century - this sudden disappearance suggests a sudden turn in astrological thinking and practices, rather than a gradual supplanting of a less effective traditional method (whole sign) by a new and more effective method (rheotrius/alchabitius in the West, and the closely related to whole sign Equal house, in Vedic astrology)

For me, there is only 1 reason I switched to whole sign-it worked better (FOR ME)

I could care less if it were the oldest house system (which it is) or whether it was invented by Badda Bing at Barney's Beanery in Bayonne, 10 years ago: only things I consider are:
-does it seem to make sense?
-does it "taste good" to me (ie, does it "feel right" to me)
-and, if yes to the above, does it work (producing delineations and predicitions) better than what I have previously been doing?

Well, whole sign did all that, for me, so I switched; but I am not going to try to convince anyone of anything about it, except for beginners-to you who might just be starting out, I would say: try whole sign first, and see how well it might work for you...

 

[waybread]

It occurs to me that most American astrologers use Placidus house systems, which is a quadrant house system. However, for people born at higher northern latitudes, European astrologers tend to prefer equal houses. Then, as you mention, whole signs are gaining a following.

In your whole signs chart, your sun is right on the cusp of the 6th house, but in the 6th. In the equal house system, with your ascendant at 11 degrees, your sun would be in the 5th house. So which of the following seems the most like the "true you"?

a. recreation, leisure activities, having fun
b. children
c. illness and health
d. the principle of service
e. small animals

I don't know where your sun would be in the Placidus house system, but you might cast the chart and see what happens. Astrodienst, where you got your chart, has a drop-down menu of different house systems.

 

[Forel]

It occurs to me that most American astrologers use Placidus house systems, which is a quadrant house system. However, for people born at higher northern latitudes, European astrologers tend to prefer equal houses. Then, as you mention, whole signs are gaining a following.

In your whole signs chart, your sun is right on the cusp of the 6th house, but in the 6th. In the equal house system, with your ascendant at 11 degrees, your sun would be in the 5th house. So which of the following seems the most like the "true you"?

a. recreation, leisure activities, having fun
b. children
c. illness and health
d. the principle of service
e. small animals

I don't know where your sun would be in the Placidus house system, but you might cast the chart and see what happens. Astrodienst, where you got your chart, has a drop-down menu of different house systems.

Placidus puts my Sun also in the 5th house.
I would say creative expression of myself is the most important for me. I use it at work, with creating ideas, strategies and other communication activities for my clients. So it kind of blends. Children are nope to me, but they kind of like me and always want to play and I'm good with them although I don't want to have them. Pets are yes.

I was overweight, so I pay attention to what I eat and I like to work out regularly, it keeps me sane. I pay attention to my health and use things mostly herbal to keep myself health (thats Uranus and Neptune influence in the 6th house).

I am ambitious in my work and like to be the best and admired for the work I do, but I don't feel the need to help the others or like work is the most important things in my life. I don't like stay afterhours, I don't like having too much things to do at work and I am definitely not workaholic, I tend to do everything right before deadlines, because I like to to other stuff while being at work (for example astrology ).

The most important for me are my friends, and close ones, and having fun with them while hanging out or doing anything that brings joy and laugh.

But it may be easily put to say sun in the 5th works better, but other things might be important I think - Leo risings feel like 5th house locators, especially when its the fire house. Mercury and Mars are there also. Sun in the 6th is poorly aspected, and Uranus with Neptune really switch things up, which might me lead to think I'm not sun in the 6th.


My mum has sun in the 5th (or on the 4th), and her child was very important for her, but that's the only indication of that topics, where she has almost all of 4th house traits - being family-oriented, especially towards parents. But again, her sun also was poorly aspected and kind of in the shadow, no matter she is also Leo rising.

 

[Frisiangal]

Hi,
If you have just begun to learn astrology, you may not have yet reached the stage of determining the effect(s) of the planets in the sky as they are now, (called transits) as seen from Earth's own orbit around the Sun, to natal planets. They are said to trigger events according to the houses involved and can be a good measurement for any form of proof towards a particular house system.

Such an example is affecting the natal planetary positions in the chart shown, in the fact that transit Saturn (in sky now) is exactly conjunct its natal position. This is a particularly major planetary cycle, known as the Saturn return, that occurs around the 29th year (coincidentally your age now?). It's said to conform with the period when experiences in childhood and youth conditioning that have formed one's perceptions of/to life become 'the lessons learnt' that take one into leading one's own life through the maturiy experienced in/from adulthood. It's a process than can take from 2 months to 2 years, according to Saturn's interaction with natal positions.
Yours appears to be of the former kind.

Using Whole Signs, this period of time involves the interaction within the personal relationship sphere. Under Aquarius, this could relate to a strain on the Aquarius necessity for independence within it, and 'claustrophobia' as Saturn's manifestational barriers are placed upon it.

Take another house system in which the Ascendant-Descendant axis forms the start of the 1st-7th houses and Saturn is well and truly placed in the 6th house of the chart. This is a totally different realm of experience. It's still in the 'I' rather than 'I and not 'I'sector(s) of the chart (lower and upper realms). It's more concerned with any 'mental' (Air Sign) barriers and limitations placed upon 'my' freedom of Aquarius expression within the 6th house employment sphere. You intimated this in your initial post. Are conditions at work causing issues? Have there been lay-offs that are concerning you?
Saturn, as ruler of the 6th house tenanted in the 7th house could mean 'taking your work into your private relationship' that can cause friction and tensions of an Aquarius nature.

The 6th house is also concerned with physical health. Saturn, as ruler of the 6th house is IN the 6th house, albeit in its traditional sign rulership. It is also the only planet in the Air element. It opposes natal Ascendant (physical constitution) and Chiron (internal pain).
If there are Aquarian type physical complaints of the lower leg, or a 'fixed'
my way expression that tends to be suppressed and leaves one mentally agitated, Saturn could well currently be displaying its energy through the 6th house.

Obviously, the whole world is feeling the effect of inhibited freedom through continued lockdown, a change in material security (Uranus trnasiting Taurus) and the many other issues it involves. Wherever the natal chart is affected, each will experience it differently.

 

[Forel]

Well. I was thinking about things related to Saturn's return.

I'm in very stable and happy relationship for almost 10 years now, and 2 years ago (at age 27) we have had re-invention of our values in relationship which led us to build stronger in it. Right now my partner experiences some difficulties at work (lay-off and looking for new one) and with mental state as well, which sort of influence me as well.

In case of work - last year was kind of difficult, although I had many things to do at work. This year on the other hand I'm in between projects, waiting for having the one on my own, so there's a bit of anxiety what's next to come.

I haven't had any leg issues or health issues as well, but I look for my health and being active, and well.

In case of Saturn I can feel it in both houses tbh. As a ruler of 6th house it get's me kind of resposibility towards work, health and other daily stuff, but Neptune and Uranus twists them and I don't like mundane things, I need to do them on my own, differently, creatively.

But with Saturn being in 7th I think it's indicative of my relationship (where also Venus-Pluto played some role ofc) - but not in usual way. My partner is my age, we've met at the uni and stay with each other for 10 years, planing to make it lifetime. I'm very resilient, stable and good at storms in relationship, I don't walk away no matter what. And with Saturn being in Aquarius I see it through our own way of building the relationship and rules with maintaing a lot of personal space, freedom and independency, encouraging to have a life outside relationship, stimulate and inspire each-other insted of self-restricting and putting boundries or limitations.

 

[waybread]

Forel, here are two of my favorite sayings:

"Man is, that he might have joy."
[attributed to Mormon founder Joseph Smith]

"When I don't know who I am, I serve you. When I know who I am, I am you."
[Hindu scripture]

Does one resonate much more with you?

Also, with Placidus, you should be able to recall events that led to major changes in your life. These should correspond with a planet moving into the house that represents the type of change that happened. The correspondence might be through transits, progressions, or some other type of predictive astrology.

 

[Forel]

Forel, here are two of my favorite sayings:

"Man is, that he might have joy."
[attributed to Mormon founder Joseph Smith]

"When I don't know who I am, I serve you. When I know who I am, I am you."
[Hindu scripture]

Does one resonate much more with you?

Also, with Placidus, you should be able to recall events that led to major changes in your life. These should correspond with a planet moving into the house that represents the type of change that happened. The correspondence might be through transits, progressions, or some other type of predictive astrology.

Doesn't the other house systems works with transit as well? Honestly I know in order to learn more, you should take the house system that seems right to you and dig deeper into understanding positions and aspects. But when it comes to my chart, there are many placement saying similar things, then I lean on to think that all of it blends with each other, therefore I might be feeling my sun in the 5th and 6th house.

I've compared in many house systems and 6th house is not in majority unlike the 5th.

 

[waybread]

Forel, an interesting exercise would be to run your chart through the different house systems available on Astrodienst. Maybe you did this!

I have a late degree rising, so it makes a big difference if I use whole signs vs. a quadrant system.

Anytime there is a cuspy planet, it's worth considering that its influence might be felt in two houses.

Then progressions show how someone is evolving, with the faster-moving planets typically moving into the next sign by middle age.

 

[Cruiser1]

Equal houses can feel accurate, because any transit into a new Equal house is also a point making a major aspect with the Ascendant. Whole houses can feel accurate, because any transit into a new Whole house is also a change in sign. That makes these two house systems easy to work with, because they're guaranteed to have measurable results for at least the reasons given.

Non-equal system like Placidus are a bit more involved, because you have to understand and distinguish among the energies of entering a new house, entering a new sign, and making aspects, all of which will happen at different times. Non-equal systems like Placidus also have the concept of intercepted signs and houses, which never play a role in Equal and Whole.

Note that there are multiple "equal" house systems, which have all houses 30 degrees. The most commonly used form of Equal houses starts with the Ascendant (however it disassociates the MC from the 10th cusp, so the MC will wobble around through different houses over time). There's also "Midheaven based Equal houses" which starts with the 10th house as the Midheaven (however it disassociates the Asc from the 1st cusp).

However, those aren't the only two equal house options! For example, you can also tie the 1st house to the East Point or Antivertex instead of the Ascendant, and start the 30 degree houses from those points. One interesting equal system is "Balanced Equal Houses", which splits the difference between Ascendant based and Midheaven based equal houses, and is therefore the only equal system which treats all four Angles equally.

 

[wan]

Based on your descriptions of yourself, I would say your Sun is in the 5th. All that emphasis on having fun, enjoyment, not being ambitious with work...all point to a very creative sort of person.

 

[Giti]

For most locations, Placidus is the best. I have tried the rest for years and on hundreds of people and none work as well, especially is one uses cusp analysis and gets deeper into the reading.

 

[Forel]

Based on your descriptions of yourself, I would say your Sun is in the 5th. All that emphasis on having fun, enjoyment, not being ambitious with work...all point to a very creative sort of person.

I know that is the simpliest way to put it, but there is way much more context, which makes things more difficult.

1. I'm Leo rising, so I'm very 5th-house'y by nature.
2. I have Mercury and Mars in Sagittarius 5th house, which leads my thinking and acting like 5th house also.

But: my chart ruler, which would show the direction in my life messes this thing up even more.
1. In the 5th it would indicate that creative expression is key for my life and I thrive for being seen, creating something, act, children/animals or anything that has to do with it, like those topics are the things that define me - BUT as Leo rising I HAVE that need by nature.
2. In the 6th would say I am there to master the art of everyday tasks, taking care of myself and being at service to others, like my everyday work is centered towards the others and thats how I define myself.

I can't feel the 6th house (maybe YET), because work for me is a way of doing money and paying bills. And what I need is to have comfortable job, providing me with money as a base for my self-development - either is in the area of passion, learning new things, taking care of my dog or just having fun. Which is my everyday approach towards everything I do, I live by the saying "Life is stresfull enough, fun it up".
So I don't thrive to be the best at work, I just want to work creatively as I can and make work as my safety for other things, work-life balance is very important.

The other thing - Saturn changes.
Placidus puts him in the 6th. And I can say I am very responsible in things I do, although I often do it because it needs to be done and I can't be bothered. Sometimes I tend to be serious, and very critical when it comes to evaluating someone elses work. I also pay big attention towards my working out, eating, diet and so on, because I fear of getting sick (Saturn rules fears). I havent had any limitations at work, or in health, I usually get lucky with everything.

Saturn is 4 degrees away from my 7th house, where he lands in Whole Signs. So he defines my 7th house also, no matter if he is in the 6th or 7th. Here him being in the 7th is more visible, but it might be due to conjuncting the angular points.

Honestly the more I dig into it, the more I found out that everything weirdly works! And then I can't decide which system should i stick to.

 

[Forel]

For most locations, Placidus is the best. I have tried the rest for years and on hundreds of people and none work as well, especially is one uses cusp analysis and gets deeper into the reading.

Honestly, I've been doing the test with my friends, who have "switching" planets. I read them description of planet in WS house vs. Placidus. And very often Placidus works best. They can also agree to the WS, but it's not in an instant.

Someone who defends WS told me that is because of shallow understanding, but I don't know if its accurate.